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Season 5 | Double Dippin' | S1, E1.5 | The Turn On x Leone Ross

7/20/2022

Book, "Come Let Us Sing Anyway": Bookshop| Amazon
Author, Leone Ross: Website | Instagram | Twitter
Peepal Tree Press
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TRANSCRIPT
Kenrya: Kenrya: Hey, y'all, cause I didn't take notes.

Kenrya: I can tell by your eyes.

Erica: Erica and Killa, your two favorite hoe hosts.

Kenrya: Hey.

Erica: So as you know, we're on a between season break and as per usual, we will not leave you with dry dusty gooches. So here we come. That's quenching a gooch.

Kenrya: That sounds so nasty.

Erica: So we're quenching your gooch today with a Double Dippin, which is...

Kenrya: Oh, you mean like exactly what is it? Oh, okay. Season one, episode one and a half.

Erica: Oh, not the spot. No, you were...

Kenrya: Oh, I was on the right track. So a double dippin is when you want that old thing back, you dip back. Maybe you shouldn't have, but in this case you absolutely should. We going back to old episodes, we actually listened to them again, which, it's been a long time.

Erica: A long time, but you know?

Kenrya: Yeah. So like we listen to them again and now we have notes on how those quotes.

Erica: Someone has notes, so.

Kenrya: I'm sure you have thoughts, even if you didn't have thoughts.

Erica: I have thoughts, just not notes.

Kenrya: Notes and thoughts. It's all the same. It's just I can't remember shit so, I have to write it down.

Erica: Whatever you need.

Kenrya: Yes. So this week we're doing season one, episode one and a half, which was, okay I loved it.

Erica: This is why Kenrya wanted to do this episode. Because.

Kenrya: Why? Because I love Leone so much?

Erica: This episode was you interviewing yourself.

Kenrya: You said that at some point during the interview.

Erica: Because pre-production meetings, is that what we call them? Pre-production meetings…

Kenrya: Yeah, I guess so. That sounds fancy.

Erica: Are let's figure out...

Kenrya: That sounds fancy.

Erica: What we're going to do. And Kenrya was like "one and a half" and I'm like, okay. And then I'm listened to, I was like this bitch is like, this is the audio equivalent of Kenrya staring in a mirror.

Kenrya: What's funny is I have the...

Erica: Leone is great, right?

Kenrya: I just remember how much I love her and every time she pops up on my timeline, I'm like, “I love Leone.” So I wanted to listen to it again.

Erica: Yeah, no she's great. It was a great episode. And I was like duh, when she was like, "Yeah, I go to the beach and read because it's, I can, imagine waves being blue and pink and purple," and I was just like, yep.

Kenrya: Because you more than anyone else has sat next to me while I've done that.

Erica: Yeah. Like, yep. Well, okay.

Kenrya: Yeah. I mean that never really occurred to me, but I love her writing and I love her. And I figure, in season four when we did Double Dippings, we did episode one, which our very first, our pilot episode. And so I thought it'd be nice to revisit our first interview and see how things have changed.

Erica: Yeah cause it was very, Bella Noche.

Kenrya: No.

Erica: So, I always referenced the Bella Noche, you know that video, YouTube. It was, "If you was beefing at that wedding, you should have stayed at that wedding because if you can't go to Belle Noche, where the hell can you go?" So, when we do interviews, Kenrya tends to be Hazel London, which is the young lady that was telling the news, "If you was beefing at Bella Noche, where the hell can you go?" And then I tend to be her home girl, whose name I don't even know. But she just sitting on the side, like, "That's sad." So we—I've—gotten better at interviewing early on.

Kenrya: You have.

Erica: You can tell that Kenrya was like, "If you was beefing at that wedding and you should have stayed at that wedding." And I was like, "That's sad." So, yeah.

Kenrya: Well I do. But in listening to this, I had some moments that felt cringey for me. And things that I said or did or didn't. So the first, so this was before we started asking folks their pronouns, but I also didn't want to misgender anybody. So I started out, I read everybody's bio with no pronouns and I just kept hearing myself say. “Leone, Leone, Leone.”

Erica: But didn't you ask her, what are your pronouns?

Kenrya: I did after the bio. And that's what we did the first season. I read the bio with no pronouns and then I would ask their pronouns. Yes, and then when I asked, I said preferred pronouns, which is not the way that we should do it because, and we've talked about this, saying preferred pronouns asks as if it is some preference and something that you choose as opposed to just who the fuck you inherently are. But I didn't know that at that point. And I, in spaces where I was, that was what folks were saying and I hadn't come to that knowledge yet. So not judging myself, but being able to see how learning comes in. Right?

Erica: Oh yeah. I mean...

Kenrya: Yeah. And then I said “crazy” twice, which is super ableist language that I never use anymore. So I was just like, “Kenrya.” So I have those moments. Also I sounded very peppy. I haven't heard myself sound that way in a really long time. I had so much energy.

Erica: How did that feel?

Kenrya: That's a great question. A little sad, actually. Yeah. A little sad, but...

Erica: Who's that lady?

Kenrya: Yeah. But I mean, what'd they say, "Don't be sad because it's over..."

Erica: Be happy.

Kenrya: “Be happy that it happened,” or some shit.

Erica: It is either a fucking, that's a, yeah. That's a quote from somebody.

Kenrya: Somebody.

Erica: On Instagram probably.

Kenrya: Yeah. So.

Erica: Next to a live, love, laugh poster.

Kenrya: Okay, now. You, do you remember used to have live, love, laugh photo frames? Do you?

Erica: Cause my mama bought them for me.

Kenrya: Did she?

Erica: It was literally ’cause Judy Easter bought them not because...

Kenrya: I don't think I knew that those was from Miss Judy.

Erica: Do you think I would by that shit?

Kenrya: I don't know, but I distinctly remember they were outside the bathroom down on the first floor.

Erica: No, it was because, it was more mama bought them for me. So it was like, okay, then we living, loving and laughing.

Kenrya: “Ooh, this is my shit.” Some shit you found in Marshall's and was very excited about.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: They were pretty.

Erica: Judy Easter found it in Marshall's.

Kenrya: I'm sure she did.

Erica: Or at the hospital gift station.

Kenrya: That costs too much.

Erica: But she worked in the hospital.

Kenrya: She probably had a discount. Yeah.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: Exactly. Okay.

Erica: Yeah. Well, anything else?

Kenrya: I said "that's what's up" too many times.

Erica: Girl, don't even go there. So, that's what's up. That's sad. All right y'all, sit back.

Kenrya: Well wait, wait, wait, wait, wait with all of that it's a beautiful interview. Leone is fantastic.

Erica: Yes.

Kenrya: At one point we thought we were going to get off and then she asked us a question and then we kept talking for...

Erica: Oh, shit yeah.

Kenrya: Another 10 minutes. And at one point she said something like “transness in all is complexity and gorgeousness,” and I just was like, “Oh you and your words.”

Erica: That whole piece where we were talking about gender and I was just like, “Oh, this is great.” It felt good going back to that. And yeah.

Kenrya: It was really beautiful. So, yeah, like come for the, I don't know. I don't know what you come for, come for the shit that we just laughed about, but stay for the beautiful, beautiful interview with Leone. It was, yeah, one of my favorites and a great way to start the show. So, yeah.

Erica: Okay. So now, wine, weed, whatever you need, enjoy.

Kenrya: Enjoy.

Erica: Yes. I like it.

Kenrya:
Come here. Get off.

[theme music]

Kenrya:
Today we're excited to have Leone Ross, the brilliant mind behind Drag. Leone is a Jamaican-British fiction writer, editor, and academic, who writes literary fiction, magic realism, horror, and erotica. Leone is a two time novelist whose short stories have been published widely. Leone's novel, Orange Laughter, was named one of the most influential British novels of the last 25 years. Yo, that's crazy.

Leone:
That's ridiculous. Whatever. But thank you!

Kenrya:
And your, the 2017 short story collection "Come Let Us Sing Anyway," which is where Drag appears, has been described as remarkable, searingly empathetic, outrageously funny, and unforgettable. Yo, that's crazy. A former journalist, Leone is currently a senior lecturer in creative writing at Roehampton University in London, commissioning editor for Fincham Press, and Senior Fellow of the UK Higher Education Academy. Whew, yes. Leone.

Leone:
That makes me sound like I'm not going to swear, but it's not true.

Kenrya:
Oh, well good, you in the right place.

Erica:
We love cursing academics, so, yes.

Kenrya:
You got it! So first, we just want to ask, what are your preferred pronouns?

Leone:
She and her, that's just fine.

Kenrya:
Great, okay. Awesome. Always want to make sure we get it right.

Kenrya:
So, we just heard your whole bio, I just read it. It's fantastic. But can you tell us in one sentence what it is that you do?

Leone:
I suppose I pay attention to small spaces, and try to recreate them. That's what comes to mind, yeah. I've been doing that since I was a little girl, paying attention to small spaces.

Kenrya:
That's what's up. So, where are you from originally? I said earlier you're Jamaican-British-

Leone:
Okay, yeah, so you're going to hear a lot of weird accent things going on, and this very irritating thing that I do that when I'm in the company of people who have a different accent from me, I start creeping into it, which is just really embarrassing, so wait for that one.

Leone:
But the background is that I was born in England, and when I was six, my mother, who is Jamaican, took me back to Jamaica, and I stayed there until I was about 21, and I did my first degree there, and then I returned to England. So all of my formative years were spent in Jamaica, and if I'm among other Jamaicans, I sound much more Jamaican than I sound now. All Jamaicans tease me that when I lose my temper or have sex, I sound Jamaican, and if I'm speaking formally, I sound British. British people tell me I don't sound British at all, and Americans, Jamaicans say I also sound... no, British people say I sound American, and Americans tell me I don't sound American at all, so who the fuck...

Leone:
But that's, my basic background is a lot of mix. I suppose, at its heart, I feel Jamaican more than anything else, but I think that's a formative year thing. You know, wherever you grew up, wherever you went to high school, I think as well, makes a difference. So yeah, that's kind of

Kenrya:
Love it.

Kenrya:
So, Leone, where are you based now?

Leone:
I now live in London, where I have lived for 20... many years. Which is presently imploding and totally screwing up, and Brexit is driving us all crazy, and the Conservative government is driving us possibly just as crazy as Trump is making you guys feel.

Kenrya:
I was about to say, we might know a little something about that.

Leone:
Yeah, so yeah, exactly, I don't want to assume, but I assume. I assume that, considering you guys like sex, that you don't like Trump, so-

Erica:
Not at all.

Kenrya:
Yes

Erica:
Not at all.

Kenrya:
It's the best assumption anybody's made all day.

Erica:
Spot on. So-

Leone:
Basically that man has never given a woman an orgasm, and that's his problem.

Kenrya:
I mean, he's probably had them, but he's never given one.

Erica:
Oh my god, no.

Leone:
Oh, no, definitely I mean, it takes two minutes to have an orgasm, especially if you're a man, but especially if you're giving it to yourself. But to give a woman an orgasm

Erica:
That would require-

Leone:
To share in a woman's orgasm requires... many things.

Erica:
Yeah, a level of consciousness.

Leone:
None of which is like... yes exactly.

Erica:
Not at all, not at all.

Leone:
I don't believe I'm spending the first five minutes cursing the President of the United States.

Kenrya:
I mean, I feel like it's probably how we should open all spaces, so it's fine

Erica:
It's like an invocation of fuck this shit.

Leone:
The best invocation of all.

Erica:
So, Leone, did you always know that you wanted to be a writer? What did you want to be when you grow up?

Leone:
Yeah, always. I mean, there was a period in which I wanted to be a vet, a veterinary surgeon, because I really love animals, but that was to accompany the writing. I think I always knew, and I was one of those children who, you'd take me to the beach and I'd sit down and be reading a book, and people would be like, "Look at the waves," I'd be like, "But there are waves in the book, so I don't know why you're bugging me about waves in reality."

Kenrya:
Right, and I can picture how they look however I want, right?

Leone:
Yes, exactly right, I can make them green, or blue, or purple, or orange, so leave me alone. Having said that, I really like the water and I like the beach.

Leone:
But yeah, I was that kind of kid. So I think I always knew that one of the best ways to spend time was to read a book. Then when I began to start writing, I always think I had an impulse to... I wanted to make people feel. I think that was my initial impulse. When I began to work out that I could write things down on a piece of paper and make people laugh, or get upset, or be delighted, or moved... I'm aware that other people did that, because obviously when I was a little kid I just had ambitions to do that, I thought that was a kind of magic. I still do. Like, you know when you write something on page 49 on section 3, paragraph 2, that's intended to make your audience laugh, and then you read it out loud, and wherever you go, and wherever you are in the world, they laugh in that moment... I love that shit. It's like yes! That's what I wanted to do. Laugh at that moment, get aroused at this moment, cry at this moment, yes. Maybe I was just a control freak when I was a kid, but that's what I wanted.

Kenrya:
I mean, who isn't.

Erica:
Leone, I feel like you are describing my best friend right now.

Leone:
Tell me, tell me, was it like that for you as well?

Kenrya:
Yeah, I have control issues, but I think more than that, I mean, this sounds sad, but books have always like been just a really great friend. I mean, obviously not as great of a friend as Erica, but-

Erica:
I was about to say, I'm a bad bitch, but okay.

Kenrya:
Yes, you are a bad bitch, and the books could never compare. But books have been my constant companion. I started reading really young and I was never without one, and now that we have tech where it's just in my phone, I mean it's everything. I spend so much time writing books, and reading books, and they are just a comfort to me. So, yes.

Leone:
Yeah, there's no question, and all of the research shows just that actually nothing does things to the brain like reading does. Nothing still. No kind of art form.

Kenrya:
That's right.

Leone:
No kind of orgasmic experience, even, does exactly what is done to the brain when we read. So, yes. I mean, obviously, we're all fans.

Kenrya:
That's what's up.

Kenrya:
So, as we were saying up in your bio, you write a lot more than erotica, and in fact, Come Let Us Sing Anyway has stories in lots of different genres. I'm wondering what pushes you to dip into so many different areas with your writing?

Leone:
Probably because I read so many different areas. I'm not, and have never been the kind of novelist or reader that dismissed any particular genre. As long as it was well-written within its own context I was fine. I've always wanted to be an accessible human being, not to mention a writer. It wouldn't trouble me if someone read my work and thought, "This is challenging. This makes me think. I'm not quite sure what this means, I need to go check." That's all fine, but if I can't access your basic emotions quite swiftly, I think that I personally haven't succeeded. Genre writing is some of the best writing there is.

Leone:
So, I remember once making some weird reference, this is years ago, to an editor that I had. I mentioned something about the word obsidian, and he said some highfalutin academic thing in response to the word. I said, "No I meant the Obsidian Order on Star Trek," and he's like, "what?" He's like, "But you're such and intelligent woman!" I thought, "What does that even mean? That you can't be an intelligent woman, and read Shakespeare, and pay attention to Star Trek?" I mean popular and high culture, whatever that means.

Leone:
So, I supposed that's all a way of saying that I'm interested in all ways of moving people. Complex literary fiction, I make an attempt at, and I hope that I can make a metaphor like the next person. I'm interested in complex ideas and features of language, in fact I love that. But I also want to be able to chill your bones. I want to be able to turn you on. I want to be able to surprise you. I want to make you laugh. So, if I manage to do all of those things, great. I wouldn't limit myself to any one genre in order to try to get that kind of emotional response.

Kenrya:
I'm wondering, I mean I love that you have never thought to limit yourself in that way, but I'm wondering, I guess as a writer as well, I write quote-unquote serious non-fiction. Did you ever struggle with the decision to add erotica to the mix? Does it-

Leone:
No. I mean, the erotic was always there. The irony is that a lot of people in Britain who, the few who know me, of that subset associate me of being the sex writer, which is really funny because it's the smallest amount of the genre I do. I mean as you can see in Come Let Us Sing Anywhere, there are only like three stories, I think, that have any kind of explicit sexual reference. But I remember trying to work this out at one point, laughing, of all people, with my grandmother, about it, who by the way, before she passed, read everything I ever wrote, including the explicit sexuality.

Erica:
Love that.

Kenrya:
We Stan a supportive granny.

Erica:
We love a supportive granny.

Leone:
I love her so much for that. It's so totally wonderful. I remember saying to her, "Maybe a little sex goes a long way." I've just become this kind of sex writer when that's not the whole story. I didn't have a problem with it, it just wasn't the whole story. So, she just looks at me, she said, "The thing with you is that not only do you write explicit sexuality, you've also injected your entire work with a sense of sexuality, with the sense of the body." She said, "You do that all the time in ways that I don't even think that you recognize." So she said, "I think people mistake that sense of sensuality and the body, they think sex. So you're not always talking about sex but you're being sexual a lot of the time." This, note, was my grandmother. And I'm like, "Yeah, I can go for that." She's like, "You have intellectual ideas about sex as well as sensory ideas about sex, and language based ideas about sex, and then the sex." So, she's like, "Because you see the world through many lenses but one of them is human sexuality, I think people then get the impression that you're writing more sex than you are," or something like that. That was her view, anyway, and I thought, "Okay. That'll do as a theory. That's fine."

Kenrya:
I like it.

Erica:
So, let's jump into Drag. I loved the story, absolutely loved it. I'm a reader, but not as much as Kenrya, so this was kind of my first foray into erotic fiction and-

Leone:
Oh, how wonderful so you were a virgin?

Erica:
Yeah, I was a virgin.

Leone:
I took your virginity, that's so cool.

Erica:
At 30...bleh, yeah, you took my virginity, and I loved the story, so where did your inspiration for the story come from?

Leone:
Thank you.

Leone:
I was thinking about this earlier because you also have to remember, I don't know if you've noticed, this is an old story. This is like 18 years old. Where the hell did it come from? I was trying to work it out earlier. It was something to do with... I do remember the first moment I thought about it. I was walking down street and I was, I think as you Americans say, feeling myself.

Kenrya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Leone:
Felt quite cute that day, and felt very confident in my stride in that moment, and really began to work it, really began to think, "I like this. I like my body today. I like the vibes I'm giving out." Then I began to think just wandering down the street, the phrase, "I feel like a boy," came to me. Now this is not a matter of transsexuality or that complexity and gorgeousness. It was more to do with I'm taking on a stride that might be associated with masculinity because it is so confident, because it is so unquestioning, because it takes itself so much for granted. I remember thinking, "Let me play around with that idea, a woman who's feeling like a boy today." How might a woman who's feeling like a boy today want to be approached sexually? How might ideas, whether or not they're stereotypical or not, how might ideas of masculinity affect the way a man might approach her, sexually?

Leone:
Then I began to think, "Oh, I could make this into a story." So, I thought maybe what we can do is come up with an example of three experiences a woman has with one single man who returns to her three times in her entire life, and each one marks a period of development.

Leone:
So that was her first period of development. She's young, she's 18 when she meets him. She's walking down the street feeling like a boy, and they have an experience that has to do, hopefully, with ideas of gender and masculinity and femininity. She's young, so she's playing and she's really open to playing around with identity and taking chances. When he meets her the second time, it's different. When he meets her the third time, it's different again. So, that's maybe where the idea came from. That was the genesis.

Leone:
A lot of ideas, lot of stories come to me, both in moments and with sentences.

Erica:
Wow.

Kenrya:
I'm wondering, the genesis really came from you strutting, are there any ways more specifically that you relate to Josephine? Have you found yourself trying on different roles to figure out your place, whether it was sexually or otherwise?

Leone:
I think so, but I think my gift, just to backtrack slightly for context, my gift has been a really great sex education from both parents and extended family. It's not that my family doesn't, like any human family, have their own limitations or nervousness about human sexuality, but they certainly nurtured my kind of natural curiosity. It's a kind of family joke that I was so interested in sexuality so young and asked questions so young. Their gift to me was that they answered without any kind of shame, without any kind of guilt.

Leone:
I may have to say that again, my computer just did something annoying, sorry.

Leone:
Yeah, they answered my questions about sexuality when I was a kid without giving me any kind of shame, without giving me any kind of guilt. So that created a context in which I then, in the process of working out who I was sexually and what I wanted, which I believe, by the way, is a lifetime's job, just like writing, because things change all the time and grow. What I am really grateful for is whatever roles I've played like the protagonist in this story, or not, I haven't felt any shame about it. Pure, straight up curiosity and joy. Which is not to say we don't have issues, we wonder whether we're with the right person. We have certain feelings about our bodies, and so on. It's not that it's without pain or complexity. But sex, as a pure experience, to me, doesn't actually have anything to do with what the body looks like. It doesn't have anything to do with anything but its own gorgeous sense of energy. Do you know what I mean?

Kenrya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Leone:
It's just something unto itself, and an acceptance and love of sexual energy unto itself has allowed me to play with roles or likes, or dislikes, as they've come up in my life without feeling like I was bad, or nasty, or wrong. Which I love, and I notice a lot of women and men haven't had the same experiences.

Kenrya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Leone:
I don't know if that makes any sense.

Kenrya:
No, it makes total sense. I think it's a gift that they gave you.

Leone:
They really did.

Kenrya:
So many of us are walking around out here broken in that regard, that we weren't given that space to be able to develop and to find the joy in ourselves, and in our bodies, and who we love, and the ways that we love. It manifests in so many awful ways. In hate, in-

Leone:
Yeah, and I mean I've also been blessed because I wouldn't... I mean one has to be careful when you talk about this, to be sensitive and to be compassionate, but I also have been lucky enough not to be the one in three or one in four women who will have some kind of sexual abuse of some type in their lives. So I'm really grateful for that privilege as well. It's not come to me and it could come to me any minute now, let's be real about the way that the world works. So that also hasn't come to compromise my kind of unfettered joy. Jesus, I sound like an academic. It feels good, okay. It feels good and I'm cool with it feeling good, and I'm cool with finding it.

Leone:
I'm quite sentimental about sex, actually. Sometimes people don't expect that of me. I remember once having a conversation, my girlfriend's going to kill me, but once having a conversation with a girlfriend of mine, who... You know that numbers question?

Kenrya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Leone:
What's your number? When you're in your twenties, what's your number? Now, I don't give a fuck about anybody's number. It doesn't make any difference to me. But she wanted to know my number so we sat down and we counted up numbers, and then when we compared numbers, she went, "You can't have such a low number," because she had a higher number than me, right. So, I was like, "Why?" She's like, "But it's you." I was like, "What does that even mean?"

Leone:
You're the sex one.But that doesn’t mean i’m fucking everybody.

Kenrya:
Right.

Leone:
Which means I'm working with what works for me. I said, "Why do you have to bring emotion to this number? Your number is just a number." So then she made me re-count. She was like, "Okay, you're bisexual, so now you have to count the women," cause we were counting men. I was like, "Okay." So I counted the women and I was still lower than her. She's like, "Okay, screw you, let's count non-penetrative sex."

Erica:
When did you brush past someone in the grocery store?

Leone:
The number went up again with the non-penetrative sex. Exactly.

Kenrya:
Shit, I don't even think I can remember all the non-penetrative sex.

Leone:
I know, truly, I couldn't remember. I was like, "This is getting ridiculous," right, this is just not necessary. Now having said that, in her defense, she was also joking. It became, of course, a laugh. But just that initial response from her, which was, "But I can't have a higher number than you," made me also think about the complexities of sexuality and how women are expected to behave when they're cool about sex. So therefore you're expected to sleep with lots of people. I mean, do what you want to do, that's my thing. Do you what you genuinely want to do and what feels good.

Kenrya:
That's what's up. So I have a question that, people ask me this question all the time and it feels like choosing a baby, but you can do it. Do you have a favorite line in Drag?

Leone:
Oh my god, you should've warned me of this before. Do I have a favorite line? I will start looking for the favorite line while we talk about the things that [inaudible 00:20:58]. Crap. Probably. I'm really tempted to just look at page 33 and just say, "A single crumb sits on his neat mustache," but that's only the page...

Erica:
Oof, that

Kenrya:
And I want to lick it off, yes

Leone:
I want to lick it off.

Erica:
You do such a great job of building that frenetic, like every single bit in me-

Leone:
Everybody likes that, yeah.

Erica:
-is about to lose it if I don't do this in that particular part of the story. That was... yeah.

Leone:
Yeah. For the listeners, what we're doing is we're referencing a scene in which the male protagonist comes and finds the female protagonist who's having a professional meeting, and whose client arrives, but he's masturbating her under the table. I love that. They're so, I don't know how they do it. I quite like "my hand is frothy." Frothy is a good word.

Kenrya:
Frothy is a good, nasty word.

Erica:
Yeah.

Leone:
Frothy is a good word. But I'll tell you what I really like as well. I know I'm choosing random lines and being irritating, and not obeying you, but the moment I like is when she starts coming and the client doesn't know what she's doing, and of course her lover does know what she's doing, and he's trying to cover it up, but he's also wanting to laugh, and the client's just shocked and thinks that she's having a fit. And the whole restaurant's just kind of erupting and thinking, "Oh my god, oh my god, the woman's having some kind of heart attack."

Kenrya:
Right.

Leone:
And she's just coming, and I love reading that to people because, whoever the audience is, they're in tears of laughter at this point

Kenrya:
Yeah.

Leone:
Because it's silly, apart from anything else, which is what I like. But it is supposed to turn you on, so I hope it turns you on.

Kenrya:
Oh, yeah.

Erica:
No, it's silly, and so... damn sexy. And I think so often, we forget that sex is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, and we have moments where we laugh. So that was a great choice.

Kenrya:
So I-

Leone:
I think that's one of the things that kind of made me the saddest when people have fed back to me about this particular story, which is that they say to me it's so joyful, and they're not used to that. And I think, "Really? I mean, how are you people fucking?" What? Why-

Erica:
You're doing this all wrong.

Leone:
I mean there are all kinds of ways to have sex, of course. There are all kinds of ways to have sex, loving, and intense, and dark, and beautiful, and all kinds of things. But joy, it seems to me, if laughter is too far away from the sexual space, I think you need to rethink who you're sleeping with.

Kenrya:
Listen, that is a whole word. So y'all about to learn something about me that is very personal.

Leone:
Go! Go, go, go.

Kenrya:
When I'm having sex with someone who I really care about, I laugh when I come.

Erica:
Whoa.

Leone:
That's so good.

Kenrya:
I do! It's the best. I'm having so much fun. And the first time they're always like, "What? Are you laughing?" And then they start laughing, and they get really excited that they made me so happy.

Leone:
Are you sleeping with men?

Kenrya:
Yeah.

Leone:
I'm just not assuming about anybody's sexuality. Okay, so you're sleeping with men, but sometimes men have to be coaxed into laughter, that it's okay, that we're not laughing at them.

Kenrya:
At them.

Erica:
Yes I've learned, I find that in my experiences, men take sex as a job, whereas women take sex as a journey.

Kenrya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Erica:
Women, we just want to enjoy every bit of it, whereas men want to perform and-

Kenrya:
They're focusing on that task, yeah.

Erica:
Yeah they-

Leone:
I think it, isn't that what's expected of them?

Erica:
No, I'm sorry, you can go Leone.

Leone:
No, I was just saying that it makes sense, there must be a certain kind of masculinity, that's all.

Erica:
Yeah, and even when they...

Leone:
It's like I have to be good at this so I will now try to be good at it.

Erica:
Exactly.

Leone:
And I think, "You poor thing, you don't have to be good at it, you just have to be present, which will make it good."

Kenrya:
It's hard to be present when you're stuck in your head, thinking about, "Oh, does this feel good to her," all the time.

Erica:
Well, Leone, since this is our first episode, and I lost my reading erotic fiction virginity to you, we're going to be talking about first times. So do you have a first time story you'd like to share? And it can be anything, first time I tried yogurt, or first time I tried a woman, whatever.

Leone:
You don't want me to tell you about yogurt. I have to think of what I can tell you without my best friend cursing me tomorrow morning about it. First times... Actually okay, no. This will be a story that's a best friends story.

Kenrya:
Yay!

Leone:
And she will curse me because she says I have this wrong, but this is the way I remember it, whether it's wrong or not. I'm remembering the first time I met my best friend, who I have known since we were 10 years old, so that makes it 40 years this year that we've known each other. This is my memory, this is not hers, so it's fair for me to say before I say it, but she says I'm talking rubbish. This is my memory of us knowing each other.

Leone:
We'd been at school with each other for a while and we'd never spoken. And then both of our parents were late to pick us up one day. I was reading a book, I was reading a large book. But slipped inside the large book was some sex book. It wasn't porn but it was something about human sexuality, that I remember. And at one point it became evident to her that I wasn't reading the book that she thought I was reading, and so she realized I was reading this sex book. I mean, it could've been Shere Hite, it could've been some sort of report on how babies were born, I have no idea, but it was something sexual.

Leone:
So I remember us both having a giggle about this moment, because I was expecting her to be judgemental but she wasn't at all. And then I remember going into the bathroom, this is not sexual by the way, she's totally straight, but going to the bathroom maybe to wash our hands or whatever we were doing. We use the loo and whatever. And then when we came out, or maybe when we didn't come out, but at some point I said to her, "Tell me something, do you masturbate?" And she said, "Yeah." And I said, "That's cool."

Erica:
I'm like, "This is a 10 year old conversation?"

Leone:
And we're like 10 or 11, right? And on some level I thought, "This is my tribe." This is someone who is also so comfortable with sexuality that there's no condemnation, there's no judgment, and that was the start of our connection. Again, I'm gonna say this, my best friend would say that this is a total lie but that's how I remember it. And I remember thinking that I could trust her because this was the first time in my memory I'd said to another human being, "Do you masturbate?" And they'd come back with, "Yes." And that was just understood and

Erica:
Wow, that's so beautiful.

Kenrya:
Wow.

Leone:
Apparently

Kenrya:
I wonder what her version is.

Leone:
You can never tell with these bloody novelists.

Leone:
No, she just says it never happened, and I'm a liar. I say she has a bad memory.

Kenrya:
I mean, you are a writer, but I feel like you didn't make that up whole cloth.

Leone:
I promise, I usually know the things I make up, even if I'm trying to pass them off. I promise you. The best I can do is say to me it is the truth of what happened.

Kenrya:
Yes, I like it.

Leone:
Put it this way, at some point she and I had a conversation about masturbation. That I know.

Erica:
That's so great.

Leone:
And she didn't condemn me for it.

Kenrya:
Well, I think we're done. This was so fun.

Leone:
Okay. Wow.

Kenrya:
Right?

Leone:
So that's how do it, huh? So how did this work for you guys with the first time? Are you disappointed? Are you, you know, did you have an orgasm? Is the afterglow good for you?

Erica:
The afterglow is great. I think you were a really great first guest, because you get our brand of-

Erica:
You get us. I feel like I found my tribe in you, in a writer.

Leone:
Seriously, this is the tribe. We could meet each other in Ohio tomorrow, and just go to dinner and be absolutely cool. We are sisters.

Erica:
Yeah, so this was a great interview.

Kenrya:
Yeah it's true. Also, I'm from Ohio, so that's the best place to meet.

Leone:
I just said Ohio because I think I read that one of you was from Ohio, so I just slid it in there.

Erica:
We're two Midwestern girls that have a love for a good casserole and... and sex.

Kenrya:
...and sex.

Leone:
We didn't talk about food, oh my gosh, we did talk for ages.

Kenrya:
No, this is fantastic. I mean, we really love this story. I've had Brown Sugar, where this originally appeared on my bookshelf, for years. It's literally moved with me maybe six times.

Leone:
Wow.

Kenrya:
And this has consistently been my favorite story. So for us-

Leone:
Wow, that is a huge compliment. Thank you.

Kenrya:
It is just fantastic from beginning to end, and I love-

Leone:
Indulge me in one last moment, why is it that you like it? What is it that you like?

Kenrya:
Sure. So much... cause I am the one, I use erotica to get off, and so much of it honestly becomes super formulaic. You know what's going to happen next. You know that he's going to talk about her pert nipples. You know that she's going to talk about his member. And it's none of that.

Leone:
Oh, Jesus. That's why I don't like, you know what, I'm going to tell you a secret, I don't like erotica.

Erica:
Girl...

Kenrya:
Yeah.

Leone:
Because so much of it is so badly written.

Erica:
We're learning that.

Kenrya:
Yeah. That is honestly the biggest challenge we've encountered so far, is that, I think Erica, you literally just said it-

Leone:
Promoting good erotica.

Kenrya:
Yeah, she was like, "We overestimated how much great erotica there was out there."

Erica:
Because we found such good erotica in the beginning, and so we're like, "Oh! The world is just teeming with this." And...

Leone:
No. It's teeming with members and bosoms heaving, and really bad orgasms that are not natural at all and... Oh my god. A lot of it's really, really shit.

Kenrya:
Yes, and Drag is not that.

Leone:
Thank you.

Kenrya:
And I love that it's not bound by... like the fact that she feels like a boy. I think that there are so many folks who have so many hangups and so many biases and all of these things, that that's not something that would even come out in their writing. But for me, I just immediately connected with the role play of it all, and of her trying on all these different things, and that it wasn't restricted by gender identity, and all of the crap that we put on ourselves.

Leone:
I just think that erotica, like anything else, like any other so called good writing, has to be writing of ideas. It doesn't, and a lot of erotica's bad because it so easily meanders into cliché and stereotype, and, as you say, what you expect to happen next. I'm actually running a course in erotica, in erotic writing at the end of June because I hate so much erotica and I want to encourage people to write it better.

Kenrya:
Yes, that's awesome. Okay.

Erica:
So please, as you have students that go through this course and come out of the course, we are always looking for good work.

Kenrya:
Right.

Erica:
Because... By black writers.

Kenrya:
By black writers, about black people.

Leone:
Okay, yeah. I'll put it your way. In fact, I'll go and I'll sit down and have a think.

Kenrya:
Oh, thank you.

Leone:
And not a lot of people are doing it, even less people are doing it well, but I'll go and sit down and do that.

Kenrya:
Thank you. That's super helpful.

Erica:
And one of the things that I want to know about your story is that it centers the woman. So often so much of the writing is in the guy's mind about how he's pleasing a woman and it was just... Our goal with this, our ideal listener, not to say we don't want all listeners, but our ideal listener is a woman.

Kenrya:
Or fem, or anybody really that doesn't identify as a man.

Erica:
Thank you, Kenrya.

Erica:
And we want to center those type of people. We want to feel, we want to read ourselves and see ourselves reflected in the work. So often we don't. So this was just a great story all around.

Leone:
Yes.

Kenrya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Leone:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying so. And just for the record, in case this affected your sound, I now have a cat sitting on my bosom. Purring. So clearly she was a blessing. I don't know how that's going to mess with your recording, but she's clearly blessing your first virgin journey.

Erica:
Blessed by the pussy.

Kenrya:
I love it, and it always comes back to bosoms, so hey.

Leone:
Always comes back to pussy. If you send to the pussy, nothing will ever go wrong.

Kenrya:
You're absolutely right.

Kenrya:
I feel like we need to put that on a tee shirt.

Leone:
Please do.

Kenrya:
Absolutely.

Leone:
Please do and give me my 10%

Kenrya:
Absolutely, got it.

Kenrya:
Well, thank you so, so much for joining us.

Leone:
You're really welcome. I wish you all the luck in the world with it. You obviously sound like two gorgeous, special, thoughtful, sexy women, and I love that.

Kenrya:
Oh, yay, and we love you.

Kenrya:
Where can people find you and your work?

Leone:
They can, I supposed the easiest thing for American readers would be to look for Come Let Us Sing Anyway on Amazon, you can find it on amazon.com and amazon.co.uk or you can Google my publishers, I think this is important because they're a small indie and they need the support, and actually, I make more money if you buy it from them than Amazon. Fuck Amazon. So their name is Peepal Tree, P-E-E-P-A-L, Peepal Tree, Peepal Tree Press, and they are the biggest Caribbean and Black British publisher. So they need some bigging up, so I would just Google Peepal Tree Press.

Kenrya:
Fantastic. And you're on Instagram @leone.ross, and Twitter is @leoneross all together?

Leone:
Yep, that's me.

Kenrya:
Awesome.

Kenrya:
Y'all go follow her. We're gonna drop details to her writing in the show notes for this episode to make it that much easier, so...

Leone:
I think the other thing as well, obviously we needn't put this on the recording if you don't want to, but I think this is important for people just if they want help. I run an occasional blog called Dear Writer Girl on my website, which is leoneross.com, just that can be of help to people and it includes someone asking me about how to write erotica really well, and there's quite a long answer on that. So if people are interested in that they're welcome to go find it.

Kenrya:
Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Erica:
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Leone:
Thank you so much for your time. I'm so glad you asked me to do it.

Kenrya:
This was lovely.

[theme music]

Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.

Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.

Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.

Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.

Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.

Season 5 | Episode 10.5 | The Turn On x Claire Kann

7/6/2022

Book, "The Romantic Agenda" by Claire Kann | Bookshop | Amazon
Author, Claire Kann | Website | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook
Book, "Take A Hint, Dani Brown" by Talia Hibbert | Bookshop | Amazon
Book, "Let's Talk About Love" by Claire Kann | Bookshop | Amazon
Book, "If It Makes You Happy" by Claire Kann | Bookshop | Amazon
Book, "The Marvelous" by Claire Kann | Bookshop | Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
Kenrya: Come here. Get off.

[theme music]

Kenrya: Welcome back good people today, we are talking to Claire Kann, pronouns she and her. Claire's the author of several novels and an award-winning online storyteller. In her other life, she works at a nonprofit you may have heard of where she daydreams like she's paid to do it. She loves cats and is obsessed with horror media, which makes the whole being known for writing contemporary love stories a bit weird, to be honest. Hey, Claire.

Claire Kann: Hello. Good morning.

Kenrya: Yay. Thank you for coming on.

Claire Kann: Very happy to be here.

Erica: Yes. Thank you. Thank you for letting us use your book. All of that. We really appreciate it. Especially being that it's a little early for you. What did you want to be when you grew up?

Claire Kann: I had no idea. My parents said doctor, I said, no. So I said veterinarian. And then I realized I have a pretty severe adverse reaction to a specific bloodily fluid, and so I couldn't make it through. So then I just sort of floated around for a while. Even after I graduated high school, I had no idea. I paid for a semester at a four-year university to major in "business." What does that even mean?

Kenrya: I was a business minor. It means nothing at all.

Erica: That and psychology either.

Claire Kann: Yeah. I didn't know... I just wanted to end up somewhere where I could be comfortable. That was honestly my long-term goal.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Word. All right. That's a worthwhile goal.

Erica: I wish everyone thought of it that simply because I think it would take a lot of... I mean, there's still a lot to that. But it would take a little bit of the pressure off when you're 18, sitting there like, "Let's chart the course of my life. So I'm going to major in business." You know?

Kenrya: Like we know shit at 18. So then how did you come to be a writer?

Claire Kann: So I took a break. So after my one lone semester of college, I took a break for about five, six years. I was nannying for a while. And then I decided I wanted to back to school after having a quarter life crisis. And the good thing about waiting until you're about 24, 25, at least in America is you can file independent.

Claire Kann: You don't have to rely on your parents' income to get financial aid. And I was fucking broke, so I got all the money. And I'm fairly book smart. I was able to get some academic scholarships and such. So while I was doing general ed, just knocking that out of the way, I took a creative writing class just for an elective. And you had to submit a short story.

Claire Kann: And up until that point, I had never written anything that wasn't for school, like nothing really creative other than some poetry when I was trying to sort through my feelings. But it's bad, it doesn't count. And so, in this class, I was sweating bullets. I'm like, I don't know how to write, 50 people are about to read something and I'm going to look stupid.

Claire Kann: But I took that anxiety, I channeled it into a little fantasy horror story. Turned it in the second week, whole class loved it. And it was that response that changed the entire course of my life. That was the night I decided I'm going to write books and I'm going to be published. It had to be those two things together.

Kenrya: Wow. Okay. So this is not a question that we were originally going to ask, but I want to know. And you say in your bio that you love horror. What is it you love about it? I'm so interested in the fact that it’s what started your foray and that it is a bit different than romance, but not that different. Genre's not that different. But what brings you to horror?

Claire Kann: I have pretty severe anxiety and-

Kenrya: Same.

Claire Kann: Yeah. And a lot of people who have anxiety have this weird thing about horror where they just love to consume it because it's fear in a controlled setting. Everything that can possibly happen that's negative, you will see it play out on screen and there will be a resolution at the end. So it's very cathartic in a way, but at least that's how it started.

Claire Kann: And now it just comes from a place of habit. I still really enjoy it. But a lot of the tropes that are in movies and books don't really do it for me anymore. I often tell people there's nothing that scares me. It's not possible to scare me at this point.

Claire Kann: Anxiety and worry doesn't count. That's completely different part of the brain. But true fear, I don't know what that is. And so that's why I just keep watching it or reading it, consuming it, trying to find the one thing that scares me again.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). What's the last thing that you watched that actually scared you?

Claire Kann: Probably when I was 19 or 20. “The Fourth Kind,” it's a movie about an alien documentary. And I re-watched it a couple years ago. And it was fine. There's nothing scary about it. But at the time, I was so deep in alien paranoia that it scared the hell out of me. I could not take it.

Claire Kann: I was so unnerved because I believe in aliens. There's no way we're the only creatures in the universe. And just the thought of them coming here and being malevolent. Oh too much for me. Couldn't handle it.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. So who or what inspires you to write?

Claire Kann: When I first started writing, it was the drive of wanting to please people, to entertain them with a story. Now that I'm published, that is no longer the case. Because once you release a story to the wider world, it goes beyond your friend group or your social circle, you can't anticipate what that reaction is going to be.

Claire Kann: And I've had enough negative reactions where I've had to train myself to not seek validation through writing anymore. And so currently when I get asked this question, I say what inspires me are my contracts. I am legally bound to produce work at this point for a couple more years. I like to be paid and I don't want to let my team down. But from a creative standpoint, there really isn't isn't much these days. Yeah.

Kenrya: That's real.

Erica: Well, thank you for your honesty. But also it shows how amazing a writer you are, where in spite of all of that, you are still putting out some really dope content. So thank you for sharing that.

Claire Kann: Oh, yes. This is why I really don't do interviews, it's because like I don't put up a front, I'll tell you the truth of just about anything.

Kenrya: That's what we like.

Erica: I appreciate that. Because also, people need to see that. I think that there's so many people that are creatives. Not even just writer, but they're creatives. That sometime, the only thing getting them through the next project is the fact that, "I made this commitment and I have to follow through."

Erica: And if once that project is completed, that then results in, now I have another spark of creativity. Or okay, I'm finished with this phase. Well, not this phase. I'm finished with this period, and now it's time to move on. And that doesn't make it any less or greater than any other experience. I think it's a...

Erica: I appreciate you saying that. And I think it is very helpful to so many creatives. So thank you for being honest and not bullshitting us because that's... I mean, what's the point in that?

Kenrya: And I have 100% been there, working on books where I was like, okay, it's a contract. It's a project I said I would do. Oh, I got to promote it? Fuck. Okay, that's in the contract too.

Claire Kann: Yeah, that's where I get lost. it's the promotion for me, honestly. That's where I get stuck a lot because I am anxious and I'm not really a people person. I make this joke because my mom is like the social butterfly. People come to her for her energy. I repel people. It's very difficult to live in that shadow. So promotion is not [crosstalk 00:09:20].

Kenrya: It's hard. You're talking to fucking strangers all the time. You never really know what their motives are, where they're coming from. Half the time, they probably didn't read your fucking book. They don't really understand the themes or are not really interested. It's tough being on that circuit.

Kenrya: I respect that you have very clear parameters around... Like y'all can't see her right now. That's because she don't want to be seen. Listen. That's why I used to love on my last promo tour, doing podcasts over doing anything else that require video. I don't do TV anymore.

Kenrya: And it gets you more hits, sure, more people see it. But it's so... The last time I did TV, I had a literal panic attack. And my kid had to go down to Erica's house and I had to go to the dispensary and use my medical card because I was shaken and fucked up. And so, I decided I wasn't doing it anymore.

Kenrya: And when you remember how much power you have and how much agency you have in these situations to be able to say, "You know what? This is what I will do and this is what I'll not," that is power in itself. And so I'm glad that you exercise it.

Claire Kann: Yeah. And I have a similar experience that was my hard stopping point, was after a video interview. I disassociated for three hours afterwards. I lost three hours of time and I said, no more. I will [crosstalk 00:10:51].

Kenrya: For fucking what?

Erica: Yeah, that's so much to give for fucking what? Nah.

Kenrya: Yeah. So a couple of niggas can watch? That's cool. Not worth your health. But all that to say we're even more honored that you said yes, and that you came on. And I'm a massive fan. I have literally read all of your books, torn through them. And then sent you random messages like, "Girl, I love this book. I read it in two days." And so I'm really glad that you're here.

Kenrya: So thank you. And it actually brings me to my next question, which is how do you balance the this of it all? The writing, the promo, the having to create that creative space for yourself even when you don't feel like it with your day job, the other shit that pays you that you got to do every day?

Claire Kann: I wasn't for a really long time. This year, it was a goal for me to find balance. But in years past, it's literally just been me running myself ragged, like taking time off work to write for 18 hours a day or a week straight because my book is due Monday at 7:00 a.m. Don't recommend that.

Kenrya: That's probably not fun.

Claire Kann: It's not. But I can do it. I try to hit my deadlines. But I'm also very blessed in that I have a wonderful job. They are aware of what I do on the side. They're very supportive. They hype me up like no one else. I really love them. And so, part of it is wanting it to make it work for my company and my executive directors specifically.

Claire Kann: They depend on me there, they love me there. I'm never going to quit. I would probably take a break from writing before I left my job.

Kenrya: That says so much. Wow, that's tough to come by.

Claire Kann: And I know the pandemic has exposed all the cracks in our wonderful system here. And when I see the way employers are treating their employees, I'm like, I'm so blessed that I don't have to deal with any of that.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Look at that. You found some place where you would be comfortable.

Erica: And that, again, people... I think when we are younger, we think about... Because I went through that. I spent my entire life like, what's next? I'm going to do this. I'm going to be better. Da, da, da, da. And then like you, Claire, I got to a spot while I was working in a job that was super comfortable. And I was like, this is nice.

Erica: Because I worked jobs before where you see people and they've been in their jobs for years and hating it. And you're just like, "I'm never going to be that person." And I ended up in a spiral. I was like, yo, I could ride this shit out. This is great. Nice people, I like what I do, all of that.

Erica: But again, especially in the pandemic, you realize this is not common, and it's beautiful. So we use erotica as a jumping off for all of our conversations, including sex. So we always like to ask about the lessons that folks learn when they're young. So what was the prevailing attitude about sexuality and gender in your home when you were growing up?

Claire Kann: Okay. Well, I guess it comes in twofold because there's large age gaps between me and my siblings. So between me and my eldest sister, there is six years. And so when you're at 10 and they're 16, you'll learn a lot of stuff early. So everything I learned or gleaned was from my sister. My parents didn't have anything to do with it.

Claire Kann: They never sat me down and we had never had the talk. They were doing their own thing, and trying to survive, and provide for their children. This was just a bridge too far for them, and I would recognize that early. And so I just never asked either. So luckily though, the internet existed.

Claire Kann: Since the '80s, it's been around. But really in the '90s is when the internet got going. My mom was very supportive of the things that I wanted as long as they weren't too great of an ask. And I asked for an internet connection, a computer, and she got that for me. Her and my dad did make that happen.

Claire Kann: And so, I was on the internet early. Probably a lot earlier than I should have been. Not as early as kids these days, but considerably early for a kid from the '90s. And that's also where I got a lot of the content and information, was the internet. And I just sort of kept it to myself.

Kenrya: Word. So originally, we reached out to you because we wanted to excerpt “Let's Talk About Love,” and you were like, "Chill, it's not appropriate."

Erica: I think it was like, “I've listened to you all, and we can't do [inaudible 00:16:32].”

Kenrya: “It's a YA title.” “Okay, fine.” But instead, you told us that you were working on “The Romantic Agenda” and that we could [crosstalk 00:16:43] that.

Erica: We appreciate a good pivot. We appreciate a good pivot.

Kenrya: Thank you. And so, we're glad we got to read from it last week. So in the book, as you know, obviously, Joy and her bestie, Malcolm, and the chick that he calls himself liking, and her bestie go on a little trip. And we follow them as they try to figure out how they fit into each other's lives. Where does idea for this book come from?

Claire Kann: Well, from a craft standpoint, I'm a character writer first. So I usually just think of a plot and just wait for the characters to come to me. And so the plot I had initially was from two movies; “My Best Friend's Wedding” and “The Great Outdoors” with John Candy.

Claire Kann: And I wanted to put those two things together. And I just sort of waited around, and then Joy showed up. And I said, ”Hey, Joy, you want to be in this book?” And she said, "Yeah." She's like, "Hey, I have this friend, Malcolm." And as I was writing it, I knew...

Claire Kann: For the very first draft when I'm trying to get a feel for the characters, I knew Joy was in love with Malcolm, and either Malcolm didn't know or Malcolm was ignoring it. And so, that causes obvious tension. And when you have a situation like that, the main pressure point would be to introduce a third person.

Claire Kann: And so, Malcolm found someone which is the catalyst for Joy's story here. But then it's a romance. So I have to throw someone else in there to give her her happily ever after. And so that's where, to make it even more complicated for myself. I said, well, what if Fox is Summer's best friend? And I wrote myself into a corner multiple times.

Erica: What about this? What about this? What about this?

Claire Kann: Yeah. And it took a really long time to get it to where it needed to be for it to be publishable because it was so complicated, and I wanted to respect everyone's feelings. I didn't want anyone coming off as a villain at any point. It was a little harder with Summer because she's annoying. But I try. I know she is. And I think that's-

Kenrya: But she doesn't come off like a villain though.

Claire Kann: Yeah. And that was the main thing. It's okay to be annoying as long as it's in an endearing way, I think. And that's what I tried to give her. You don't have to like her, but at least respect her stance and where she's coming from. So that was my goal with that character.

Kenrya: Yeah. That feels like that. So did Malcolm not know or was he ignoring it?

Claire Kann: A little bit of both. I think he... They have a really unhealthy relationship I think. And they realized that, and he was putting her needs above his own to the point where he couldn't recognize her as a romantic interest because he thought she wasn't interested in dating.

Claire Kann: And respecting her was more important than maybe reading any signs. He thought he was just making it up. Like, "No, she's not sending me signals. Of course, she's not." So a little bit of both.

Kenrya: I'm just thinking because she was also codependent, and putting his needs... They were each behaving co-independently toward each other like... We're going to get into that. But anyway... Go ahead.

Erica: Okay. So two of the characters in “The Romantic Agenda” are asexual. And “Let's Talk About Love” also has an asexual protagonist. What draws you to write about these characters?

Claire Kann: So perspective mainly. So I am asexual. I didn't say it for a very long time because I don't want people in my business. I'm very private. And I was like, if I'm going to keep writing about it, I probably should start talking about it. And it is a spectrum, and people can fall anywhere that they may on it.

Claire Kann: But for me, I'm very baseline definition. I just don't experience sexual attraction. I don't think about it in that way. And so when I write, that's my default state. When I'm writing characters, they also don't experience it. So I've been trained by society to recognize it, to participate in it, to understand what's going on when it's happening.

Claire Kann: But fundamentally, I do think differently. It just felt more natural to start writing characters who had this one tiny sliver of a viewpoint that was similar to mine.

Erica: I think that's great. I mean, there's some... All right. We're going to write people that represent all types of folks in the world. I was actually talking to a woman who just found out that her daughter's asexual and I recommended your books to her.

Erica: Because I was like, Claire... I was like, she just paints a beautiful picture and it shows the spectrums and how things can be different. And it's just a story and it's not a very special episode. So I thought that was... So bravo, bravo.

Claire Kann: Thank you. It's so funny you said that because editing the first book with a professional editor, it was starting to feel like a very special episode. And I'm like, lady, I think you're wonderful, but I don't think you get what I'm trying to do here. So let's talk about this.

Erica: Yeah. Because, again, it's not like beat you over your head with it. It's just like, this is me. There are scenes where you're describing or where Joy is describing her asexuality, her asexual nature to Fox. And it reminded me of, and I know this is horrible, but it reminded me of that scene in “The Godfather” where they're making the tomato sauce, the pasta sauce.

Erica: And so it's a scene, shit's going on. But if you're paying attention, you learn how to make really dope pasta sauce. I have the worst analogies, but that's what it is. It's like, it's a scene... She's like, look, "This is what I like." But if you're paying attention, like, oh, okay, so this is what asexuality looks like in Joy. So it was great without being like a very special episode.

Kenrya: “Here is a definition. Let's read this together.”

Erica: “Asexuality, colon.”

Kenrya: Yes, absolutely. Okay. This is what I said we're going to get back to. So in the beginning of the book, Joy, she spins out when Malcolm asks her to be a buffer on this trip with this chick that she ain't never heard of. So of course, as I was reading it, I was thinking about what the fuck I would do. I want to know what would y'all do if the person who you loved, who also happened to be your bestie asked you to do some shit like this.

Claire Kann: Absolutely not.

Kenrya: Right. I'm not going bro.

Claire Kann: Absolutely not.

Erica: Old Erica probably would have. But I'd be like, bitch, you better find somebody. No. No.

Kenrya: No. Okay. I was like, am I mean?

Erica: No. And, again, we touched on this in the last episode, Kenrya. Like, there's some levels of petty that just leap out of my spirit. And so, even if I did, being codependent Erica, then I'd devolve into passive aggressive Erica. And be at dinner like, "Girl, look at these cute messages he sent me."

Erica: And I don't mean to be that person. Just like Monique said, when the whore leapt out, the petty would leap out of my spirit. And I just say that ain't good for nobody. I don't even want to be that person. So hell no. Claire, you're a wild one for that piece.

Claire Kann: No, but that's exactly what happened. That's how she used to act. And so this was to her, the book of her unlearning, how not to be petty because she used to do shit like that. So you're right on the money. That's it.

Erica: Joy is here in my spirit.

Kenrya: She has her moments where she is just like, “Fuck this shit.” Where she is just like, "I can't believe that you're asking me to do this.” And the petty leaps out. But she does a good job of stuffing it back in because I ain't got it.

Erica: Yeah. I would've burned. It would've been scorched earth on that [inaudible 00:26:07]. Y'all would've had me going home in an Uber. I would've been the trauma that bound those three people together.

Kenrya: For the rest of their lives.

Erica: Goddamn.

Kenrya: But she found her person.

Erica: She did.

Kenrya: Or another person, right?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: So there's that. Because she got past her petty, I guess. I ain't got it. I ain't got it.

Erica: Okay. So we have had the can women and men be friends conversations a million times on the show.

Kenrya: Hate it.

Erica: And it's usually like, “Can men and women be friends?” We're like, “Yep.” But in this story, it goes beyond that. It's like Malcolm's partners have problems with him being so close to Joy. And it's not inappropriate, "Can I be friends?" It's just deeper than that. Why was it important for you to explore that relationship dynamic?

Claire Kann: I think it's because of the question, can men and women to be friends. And I also agree, yes. Why is this even a thing? I felt like if I took it to that superficial level and just left it there, it would not have worked because the Summer character wouldn't have worked either.

Claire Kann: And so, just to serve the story, I had to deepen their relationship to the point where it's understandable why all of his partners, they feel so insecure and threatened, but at the same time, Joy doesn't understand what the problem is.

Claire Kann: She knows she's never going to get with Malcolm. Why can't they just chill the fuck out? And hopefully, I illustrated why things are the way they are for that particular couple.

Kenrya: Yes. Everything made sense. And I know you're saying that it felt complicated at first, but it never felt complicated in the read. It was never like, let me draw a fucking diagram on this whiteboard so that I can understand. There was none of that. Everything flowed and made sense, and the character stayed within their character. I was never like, why the fuck would she say... Everything made sense.

Erica: Okay. So I think I know the answer to this, but you may surprise me. Who's your least favorite character in this book?

Claire Kann: Summer.

Erica: Bingo. Okay. There's that.

Claire Kann: Oh, yeah. And it was real apparent in the first couple of drafts.

Erica: “This bitch, cross it out. My bad. Summer.”

Claire Kann: Yeah. They had to check me a couple of times. They were like, "Are you sure this is how you want Summer to read?" And I'm like, yeah.

Kenrya: You're like, "This is who she is. What are we talking about?"

Claire Kann: I can't help this. It's okay. And I realize like, no. Claire, really think about it. If you were Summer, how would you feel if this was how you were being written? And I really had to take some time and do some character interviews, and get into her backstory, and find out why she is the way she is. And while I understand it, I still don't like it. So she's still my least favorite.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: To your credit, I didn't hate her at the end. No, I did not hate her. She annoyed me the entire time. Like, “Bro, I don't want to make a cake with you. I don't know you.”

Erica: That's it.

Kenrya: “Leave me alone.” She aggravated me. But I didn't hate her.

Erica: Kenrya, I cannot stand you because I totally see you being like, "I don't want to do this with you."

Kenrya: I would literally be like, “No.”

Erica: Even repeating it back makes you feel stupid for being like, “Well, damn. I thought a cake was nice.”

Kenrya: No. No.

Erica: Okay. And we all have people in our lives... I can name people right now for me, and I can name people for Kenrya that Kenrya's like, "She's sweet, but yeah, she's just annoying. I ain't doing that."

Kenrya: Yeah, and so I don't. But they're so sweet.

Erica: Yeah. And so it is like, you can't be a bitch, but you'll just be like, “Oh honey, I ain't got it.”

Kenrya: I can have boundaries without being a bitch. That's what I got.

Erica: I'm sorry.

Kenrya: Okay. So I was looking back at the book yesterday, because I read it as soon as you sent it to us a couple months ago. So I was looking at it again and I noticed that you dedicated to... I don't know. What was it? Yourself at 14 and then yourself now? I love that. Why did you dedicate it to yourself?

Claire Kann: I actually changed it. So the ARC, the advance reader copy is dedicated to me, and then the final book is dedicated as a different dedication.

Kenrya: Oh, look at that. Well…

Claire Kann: It's kind of a hidden fact.

Erica: Deep cuts.

Claire Kann: Yeah. And I think I did that because the book was so hard to write and I struggled so much. And it's a pandemic book. So I wrote it all between 2020 and 2021. And I was alone. Just cut off from family. Can't go see my friends, can't go drive to see my mom. Just alone in my house writing.

Claire Kann: And a lot of my pain, and loneliness, and that fear of being disconnected went into Joy, which is why she holds onto Malcolm so tightly. It's because she doesn't want to be alone, and I was alone and thinking back 13, 14, those were the ages where that became a real problem for me as a teen. Because I feel like when you're alone and when you're lonely, those are two different things.

Kenrya: Yes.

Claire Kann: I'm never lonely. I love myself. I find comfort in myself. But being alone too long is when I start running into trouble. And so, if I could go back to those ages because I'm way beyond 33 at this point, I would give myself this book and say, "Hey, look, we get to the point where we can write this. And you love it a lot. I hope you enjoy it, younger me."

Kenrya: Yeah. That's super powerful. I'm glad that you were able to give yourself the gift of this book, even if it was later than you wanted it, right?

Claire Kann: Yeah.

Kenrya: Okay. So as you mentioned a little bit earlier, “The Romantic Agenda” was traditionally published, but your other books kind of followed, and especially your first book followed a different model, which... I only know that because I'm the nerd who reads literally everything. So I read all the back matter in the book like all the thank yous.

Kenrya: And when you're talking a bit about the website and all of that, can you tell about the process of how your first book came to be and how that publishing process differs from your current one?

Claire Kann: Yeah. So with publishing, if you're going the traditional route, usually you find an agent. Agent likes the book, they sign you, and then they pitch you to publishers, and a publisher picks it up, and then it goes onto the world. So for my first book, while it was traditionally published, I didn't have an agent. So it was the...

Claire Kann: It's now defunct, but it was SwoonReads. A website you uploaded your completed manuscript. The editing team, they also do the Feiwel and Friends. It's part of McMillan, those books as well. They went through the submissions and they pick which books they wanted to publish and I got chosen.

Claire Kann: And I only submitted because I'm terribly impatient. As soon as I write something, I want to show it to everybody. And I was really in the thick of that. So I was posting on WattPad, I was on SwoonReads. I was looking for any kind of open calls to just bypass the agent stuff. Like I would do everything except query at that point.

Claire Kann: And so when I got picked up, the way I got an agent was because they read “Let's Talk About Love.” And they said, "Hey, I want to sign you if you don't have an agent yet." And so I just... Everything I've done has been unconventional. So I try to not talk about it because I think it gives a false expectation of there's all these back doors into publishing when really there's not. I just got lucky a bunch. I worked really hard. I struggled with my craft greatly, but I still got in those ways.

Kenrya: I mean, thanks for sharing that. I don't know, I think telling the stories of the different ways that people get in also gives you the space to be like, this ain't typical. Don't expect this to be the way that it's going to go, but it is still a part of your story. And how you got to be where you are. And it's pretty dope. So I'm going to pat you on the back that you got in that way.

Claire Kann: And it goes way deeper than that. There's some stuff that hasn't been announced yet and that I can't talk about. But same backwards route where someone spotted me and said, "Hey, can you do this thing?" And I said, I'd try.

Erica: This is the equivalent of the little girl walking in the mall, and they're like, "I want you to be a model."

Claire Kann: See, that analogy was really good.

Kenrya: “The Godfather” one was too.

Claire Kann: It was, it was.

Erica: But this one makes a little more sense. Again, Claire, your story is your story, and I'm happy that you're sharing with us. And I am really thankful that you're just honest about it. Like, look, this is what happened to me. It may not be everybody's, but this is what happened to me.

Kenrya: And, I don't know, it feels like... I don't know, shit's hard. A lot. And when we have those moments of favor that pop up, I don't know. It reminds me that there's joy, even in the negotiations of the bullshit.

Claire Kann: And I just took it as a sign. Like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm supposed to be in this spot. I don't think... If one thing had gone wrong, if I had never taken in that creative writing class, I wouldn't be here today. So I'm walking my path.

Kenrya: Yeah, you are.

Claire Kann: And it's a very lucky path. And I'm very cognizant of that.

Kenrya: You know, you're... I don't know. I'd be trying not to fan girl, but I love “The Marvelous” so much. I was taking a walk, and no bullshit, reading it on my phone while I was walking through the woods because I didn't want to stop. And I was almost done, and I wanted to see how it ended before I started my workday. Yeah, I see you looking at me.

Erica: I'm like, that don't seem real smart, but okay.

Kenrya: It's not. But I didn't have... My headphones were out, so at least I could hear what was going on around me, but I was in it, in it, in it, in it. And that is not a thing that happens that often. I just really, really connect. Your work really resonates with me. And even if it's just weird motherfuckers like me, just reading your book while we walk around, not looking where we going, know that it's reaching people.

Claire Kann: Thank you. I really love that. It's really great.

Erica: What did you learn from writing this book?

Claire Kann: I learned I'm greater than my struggles because it was hard, honestly. I did learn that I was capable of more than I thought. Because writing young adult with an asexual protagonist, you can kind of lean into the audience, not knowing what's going on. You can get away with explaining things. You can be a little bit didactic. You don't have to worry about sex scenes.

Claire Kann: When you write adult romance, the game changes. And it was.... One of the first questions when I was talking for editors while I was on submission, one of the main questions I got asked was, "Are there going to be sex scenes?" And it's like, “No?”

Claire Kann: I mean, I hadn't thought that I had to do that. And I really had to sit down with character, me and Joy and say, "Hey, is this something you want to do?" And the answer was no. And so I had to find a way around that and just let people know upfront that there's no sex in this book. If that's not your thing, I don't recommend reading it because there will be no spice.

Claire Kann: And that does create a lot of pressure in terms of how the book performs because readers are looking for that. Closed door is still a thing, but it's becoming less frequent. And so I had to push past that fear to write the scene that Joy deserved.

Erica: Yeah. And it still has spice. We're here right now because it has spice.

Kenrya: I was like, you're on an erotica podcast, we don't need penetration.

Claire Kann: The next one that I'm working on now, I told my editor this character is also asexual, but she's a little different.

Erica: She's more Malcolm than Joy?

Claire Kann: Oh yeah. And I'm like, I'm just going to prepare people as much as possible because when I say I'm going to write something, I mean it. No one has seen that from me yet. And I'm there now. So that's why... It's on my brain. I want to work on it more today. So it's like, these scenes are... So I'm learning that as well right now. I am capable of more than I think. I just have to try and push myself. My [inaudible 00:41:08].

Erica: What do you want readers to walk away with?

Claire Kann: I would love it if readers could walk away with a deeper understanding of a small sliver, small facet of asexuality through experiencing Joy's story. And on the flip note, or flip side flip note, I just feel, wow, I'm tired. On the flip side, I would like for readers to have a deeper understanding of what a relationship could look like. And so, I don't really read reviews, but I did read one.

Claire Kann: And the reviewer was questioning why I didn't mention queer platonic relationships because that's essentially what Joy and Malcolm had. And I'm like, I didn't mention it because they don't have that language. That's not something that's a part of their wheelhouse. And I wasn't going to give it to them because that's not how they view each other.

Claire Kann: So just an open mind. I would love if readers had an open mind when they walked into the book and then left with a deeper understanding that you can be friends with the opposite sex. When you have issues within your relationships, you need to communicate. If your needs aren't being served, you have to be willing to disconnect even though it's going to be painful.

Erica: Okay, girl. All right. Okay. Whatever.

Kenrya: Also, fuck that reviewer. This is not a fucking nonfiction primer. Go read something different then if that's what you were looking for. Yeah, no, don't read reviews. Reviews suck.

Claire Kann: I don't. But overall I was actually-

Erica: [crosstalk 00:42:59] calm down.

Claire Kann: I was really pleased with this review, but that was that one thing. And I'm like, not everybody has that language and the assumption that just because you know I do because “If It Makes You Happy” has a queer to talk relation, doesn't mean these characters do. So I think this expectation that I'm going to put the same information as a primer in every single work that I write.

Claire Kann: And the answer is no, because I am not my characters. This is their journey. I'm just the spokesperson. They're telling me what's happening and I'm giving it shape and form.

Kenrya: Right. I was actually just about to mention “If It Makes You Happy,” because yes, that is exactly what their relationship is, but they're teenagers. They didn't have theory, they didn't have the language. They just knew how they felt about each other, and worked it out as they went.

Kenrya: And it wasn't a big deal. It was just the way that they related. And I remember me as an adult trying to figure out what their connection was. And I didn't have that language either, but it didn't matter.

Erica: That ain't your problem.

Kenrya: Right. It was just about following these characters and enjoying their story, and their growth, and whatever. Folks want to make everybody be everything for them.

Claire Kann: Yes.

Erica: Okay. A few things. I'm sorry, you got me... Okay. So first talking about... You know what, I'm not even going to bring it up. We'll talk about it offline. Just remember...

Erica: Making yourself a note.

Erica: Uh-huh (affirmative). Because I don't even want to get a situation... I don't want to give it the joy of The Turn On discussing it. As a non-writer, because when we interview authors, I feel like it's a very Kenrya–author situation. And I am the girl in the orange dress in a Bella Noche video.

Erica: It's just like, that's sad. It's a very specific call out. But as a non-writer, if listening to you, Claire, talk about how you talk to your characters, this is the character story and you're just dropping in, watching it play out, it's beautiful. It's evident in the story. I appreciate that is the way that you convey the story, and how you develop and all of that.

Erica: And, again, before this podcast, Harry Potter was my shit. That was the height of my reading. Fuck J.K. Rowling. So just learning the nuances in the back story is just amazing for this little fiction former Harry Potter reader. Okay. Do you have a favorite line or passage in this book?

Claire Kann: So I don't have a serious favorite line, but I'm working on merch right now, or little pre-order stickers to entice people to buy the book. And one line that my friend pointed out that she thought would be a good one would be "petty speaks to petty." Or "the petty apple doesn't fall from the tree."

Erica: That's fucking phenomenal. That [crosstalk 00:46:34] it needs to be.

Claire Kann: Yeah. Because Joy describes herself as petty and she's unlearning that behavior, but she's still in the thick of it. And that's how she views herself.

Erica: Again, true to the character.

Claire Kann: Yeah.

Erica: True to the character. I like it.

Kenrya: What's your superpower?

Claire Kann: I would say analyzing things, people. Cutting through the heart of a situation and seeing things for what they are. It's very hard to bullshit me. I have a long memory and I never forget.

Kenrya: Yes, that's a skill.

Erica: That sounds like some Game of Thrones shit.

Claire Kann: It's true. They would have to honestly just kill me because I would rule everything.

Erica: Like, I'm going to remember that shit. Speaking of superpowers, quick either or. Would you rather have invisibility or flight?

Claire Kann: So you know I mentioned earlier that I repel people. I'm pretty much already invisible. So I would go with flight.

Kenrya: You're not invisible to us.

Erica: You're not... Says the voice.

Claire Kann: No one sees me, no one knows who I am. I do spend a lot of time feeling invisible already.

Erica: Well, I will say that your presence has been... Your presence has not only been felt on this show, but it has been a looming force on this show for a minute, because after Kenrya read “Let's Talk About Love,” you have been on our vision board for a while. This has been a plan.

Erica: Claire Kann and her work has been very visible in the work of The Turn On and in our space. And I know we're not alone in that. So yeah, I don't know if some people prefer invisibility, but unfortunately dog, over here, you visible as shit.

Claire Kann: It's so funny because usually I just turn everything down. I won't even entertain the idea of coming on interviews most days, but I got your email and I was like, let me look at these, see what's going on. And I listened to four episodes in a row and I'm like, “I want to go on, but it's a young adult book. That's not appropriate.”

Erica: “These bitches crazy.”

Claire Kann: You read full excerpts and just going in. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe they might want to do the next book. So that pivot was a wild card. I'm like, they're probably going to say no [crosstalk 00:49:20].

Erica: No, we appreciate it because Kenrya loved it so much, we were like... I mean, because she-

Kenrya: I was like, whatever she got we are gonna do it.

Erica: ... loved it so much, I was like... Because very rarely do we get turned down. But I felt like if we got turned... And some books, if they turned us down, okay. This one-

Kenrya: We've actually never been turned down. We've had some people who just haven't responded, but we've never had anybody take the time to hit us up and be like, "Nah, bitch"

Erica: Y'all just haven't read your email. Because we fine. Y'all would've been here. But this definitely would... Moment.

Kenrya: Because honestly if somebody doesn't get back, we'd be like, all right, on to the next. But I was like-

Erica: They're going to be looking at their email in four years like, "Damn, I missed an opportunity."

Kenrya: But with this one, I was like, I hope she says, “yes.” And so then when you got back and you were like, "Hey, bitch. This is not appropriate."

Claire Kann: I'm like, well...

Kenrya: Then I was like, oh, great. Okay. Okay. We can do this. We can make this happen. So no, very excited. But the reality remains even though you're very visible over here, that don't really mean shit if that's not how you feel.

Erica: Yes.

Kenrya: So I don't know that.

Claire Kann: Very appreciated. I appreciate you both.

Erica: If you had... Wait, I thought you were pointing to me to go to another question-

Kenrya: No, I was like-

Erica: More, okay. So would you rather have the ability... This is a horrible way to set it. You're living now. You're a superhero now, would you rather be able to pop back in the past and come back, or pop into the future and come back?

Claire Kann: Can I change things if I pop into the past? Because there's some people I want to talk to, change the course of history a little bit.

Erica: You would literally have folks come in like, "Claire. So I need you to see this, do that." You wouldn't be complete...

Claire Kann: Because usually in honesty when people ask the question about going to the past, I say no. The past is horrible to Black people [crosstalk 00:51:41].

Kenrya: ... That's why I'm making that face. But you're right. If you can change some shit...

Claire Kann: Yeah, that's different. I got some scores to settle.

Erica: Yeah. That's what I'm thinking like. And I didn't say live in the past, like go back there, fuck some shit up, pop on back. So, all right. So past. Is that what you said? Past if you can go back and fuck some shit up.

Claire Kann: Yeah. Yeah.

Erica: Okay, perfect. Last one. Would you rather have super sight or super hearing? So like you can see like...

Kenrya: You're like Dolores. But see it'd be fucking Dolores up. You haven't even watched “Encanto” yet, have you, Erica?

Erica: No. And everybody keep talking about Bruno. Nobody don't care about Bruno.

Kenrya: You got to watch.

Erica: I haven't seen “Cocomelon.” I haven't seen...

Kenrya: Have you seen “Coco”? That's different.

Erica: No. I ain't seen that. I ain't seen “Frozen”, I ain't seen “Frozen 2.” I just saw “Moana.” You made me sit down and watch “Moana.”

Kenrya: Because it's one of my favorite movies.

Erica: So y'all going to have to make me watch “Encanto,” “Encanto”?

Kenrya: “Encanto.” It's so fucking good. Okay. I'm sorry. But so Dolores, one of the characters, her gift is that she can hear everything, but it's a heavy gift.

Erica: Yeah. I feel like both would be... Sorry, Claire. This is your question.

Claire Kann: No, I was thinking about it. You guys make some excellent points. I'll probably go super sight because I can't see now. Just being able to see the trees outside without my glasses would be incredible.

Erica: Okay. All right.

Claire Kann: Yeah. Because I got glasses as an adult. And so I literally sat in the chair, the man put the glasses on my face and I said, “Oh.” He laughed at me because I didn't realize how bad my vision was until I got glasses. And I walked outside and saw a tree. I could see the leaves on the tree. It wasn't just a green blur. I started crying. I would take the super sight.

Kenrya: So I've been wearing glasses since fourth grade because I started getting headaches from squinting at the... Do y'all remember overhead projectors?

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, with the-

Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:53:49] you would write on it with the... And I could never see and I'd be squinting, and I had headaches and glasses.. But my partner has, of course, wonderful sight. And so anytime I can't find them, he's like, "So you just wake up and you can't see shit?" I'm like, “I see nothing until I find my glasses.”

Kenrya: And I remember once years ago I just couldn't find them. And I couldn't start my day. It was just me and the baby. And I was like, what the fuck am I going to do? It reminds you that not being able to see is a disability.

Erica: Is a disability.

Kenrya: Yeah. I just couldn't... I don't remember how... I think I just laid on the floor and like felt around for a while underneath stuff until I found my fucking glasses. So now if I can't find them, either he's here and he finds them, or my kid comes and finds them for me. I can't see shit.

Erica: Bitch, you're going to have to keep them on a string tied to the wall or something, jeez.

Kenrya: Well, they're usually-

Erica: You know how your teacher put a stapler in a hall pass. Put a stapler on the bottom of that bitches or something.

Kenrya: I spend so much time in bed because I have to. Usually next to me is a little pod of my phone, my AirPods, a few books, my glasses, my sunglasses, because I mostly wear those at this point because of my light sensitivity. But if in the middle of one of my naps I knock my shit over on the side of the bed, I'm fucked. It's going to take a while. So yeah, I'm with you, sight.

Kenrya: I want it. I do not have it. Okay. So I'm supposed to ask you what you're reading, but I also happen to know that you were at least recently reading, “Take a Hint, Danni Brown” by Talia Hibbert. Can we just talk about that for a minute?

Claire Kann: Yes.

Kenrya: Okay. So that's the... Is that the second one or is that the third one?

Claire Kann: Second one.

Kenrya: Okay. That's the second one. Have you made it to the third one yet? Have you finished the whole thing yet?

Claire Kann: Oh, I'm done with all three.

Kenrya: How did you feel reading them? I felt so very fucking seen.

Claire Kann: My favorite, I feel like I'm a little similar to Chloe, I think. Because I just hide and run away from my problems. But I think for Danni, Danni's very.... Second one, I wanted to see what it was like to be hypersexual like that. I just needed that. I needed that representation, and a book form that I knew I could trust from an author I knew I could trust. Because not all sexual relationships are written equally.

Kenrya: And Talia does a wonderful job. We had her on the show our first season?

Erica: Yeah. So when we first started, we knew a few of the names, a few of the writers.

Kenrya: But we weren't big in Romancelandia yet.

Erica: Yeah. And we stumbled upon Talia, and we just thought it was a good story. And then I remember we interviewed her and was just fucking blown away. I think we asked like-

Kenrya: We were like, "Bitch, how many books have you written?"

Erica: We asked something and she was like, "Well, I'm only 23." It was like, what?

Kenrya: Then we went into auntie mode because she's our baby. So then when these books came out, for me, felt like such a big deal. And I was reading Chloe just as I was starting to really understand what's been going on with my health. So I was seeing things in her in me and not understanding that we had a lot of the same shit.

Kenrya: And so, it actually helped me to better understand my own disability as I was reading that book. But then I found parts of myself in all of them. And it's just... I don't know. It's such a beautiful series. And I'm so very glad that you read it because... I don't know, it feels good.

Claire Kann: Yeah. Chloe is the reason why I actually began to tell people I'm chronically ill. I need you to understand that I am at a point in my life where you need to know this information and I need accommodations. And luckily, I had surgery last year and it pretty much cleared up all my problems, and that's no longer an issue for me.

Claire Kann: But at the time, I was crying my way through that book. I'm like, this is supposed to be feel good. I'm supposed to be happy. What is happening to me? I'm really grateful that she was able to write that series, and it was supported the way it was. It blew up in romance land. Everyone loves those books.

Kenrya: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). They're massive. I want the hard covers with the sprayed edges, but I am trying not to buy more books because I don't have any room.

Erica: Just buy them. Fuck it.

Claire Kann: Yeah. Just buy them.

Kenrya: I want them so bad.

Erica: You're buying for the home you will have, not the home that you have. So buy the fucking books.

Kenrya: Yeah. Because I'm ready to read them again. I just fucking read them, I don't know, in the summer. But I'm ready to read again already. Okay, yep. Y'all have inspired me. I'm going to buy them today. Spending money I don't have.

Erica: I was literally about to buy them but-

Kenrya: Oh, go ahead. Buy them. Thanks, boo.

Erica: I mean, your credit card is on the account.

Kenrya: Awful. Okay, fine. While's she doing that, what's turning you on today?

Claire Kann: Honestly, my coffee because I'm tired.

Erica: Oh, shit.

Kenrya: They're more expensive than you thought they was going to be?

Erica: No. They're on back order. Well, Eve Brown is on back order. Chloe and Dani.

Kenrya: They don't have them as a set of the three with the... Okay. We'll talk about this offline.

Erica: I'm looking on Bookshop. Sorry.

Kenrya: Okay. So what's up next for you, Claire?

Claire Kann: So I'm working on a secret project that is about to come to fruition hopefully. And for adult romance, there will be another one, hopefully next year. Just waiting for the go-ahead from my editor, but another ace character who is sex positive in a sexual relationship. That's end goal.

Claire Kann: Like if she doesn't like the premise with different characters, we'll pick a different one with different characters, but I want to put that work out into the world because there really isn't, at least, in the traditional sphere, an ace character who really enjoys sex. And we need it. I think it's needed.

Kenrya: And especially Black folks, there's a dearth of books that star ace characters to begin with. But even a lot of the ones that are out there, it's white folks and we don't do that on the show.

Claire Kann: Yeah. And they're... Oh, go ahead.

Erica: Oh. So one of the things as I was reading and... I'm the type of person, if I find something, I do all my googles on it. So as I was doing my googling, I learned that a lot of young people... It takes a while for young people to even recognize that they are asexual because they just don't know. They don't see it.

Erica: And so, again, it's great that you are writing these stories. Because like you said, with the Chloe Brown book... Well, Talia Hibbert's, Chloe Brown book, people can be read it and be like, "Oh, wait, I do that." That's me. And it's much better than getting a pamphlet at a county fair.

Kenrya: Whatever. Malcolm brought Joy to her truth. Shit.

Claire Kann: Honestly, when “Let's Talk About Love” came out, several emails a week of people coming out in my inbox, just telling me like, "I had no idea. This is me. How did you know?" And I'm like, “Girl, I don't know you. I'm happy you found your way. But hey, let's not get too personal here.” But-

Kenrya: It's a lot of information, but you are helping folks.

Claire Kann: It is. And it still happens. Maybe once a month, twice a month, someone will email me and say, "Thank you. I found myself, I love this. This is me. Where can I get more information?" And I'm like, let me help you. I got you.

Kenrya: That sounds like a damn good inspiration to write.

Erica: I think so. I think so.

Kenrya: So folks can find you at ClaireKann.com, which is C-L-A-I-R-E K-A-N-N.com. And can you tell us they can find you?

Claire Kann: Instagram on a good day. Other than that, you got to email me.

Kenrya: And so your IG is @KannClaire, K-A-N-N-C-L-A-I-R-E. And it's the same on Twitter but you're on Twitter less often?

Claire Kann: Yeah, yeah. Almost never. Definitely Instagram is your best friend. It's the same handle, but email is always, always best.

Kenrya: And they can find that by going to your website.

Claire Kann: Yes.

Kenrya: Go check out her site, look at her stuff, order her books.

Claire Kann: Yes.

Kenrya: Yeah. Yes.

Erica: Support this girl.

Kenrya: Exactly. Thank you so much for saying yes.

Claire Kann: You're welcome. Like I said, I had a good feeling and I'm so glad I went through with that. And I'm glad you guys said yes to the pivot.

Kenrya: Yeah, no, that was never a question. And I'm glad it turned out to hopefully be a good experience.

Erica: You could have been like, here's this mystery box and I want you to read it, we've been like, yes. A cheese slice. We are going to read the fuck out of this because Claire wrote it.

Kenrya: Exactly. And on that note, that's it. Wait. So not only is this the end of this week's episode, but this is the last episode of this season. Fuck.

Erica: That's me wiggling my boobs.

Kenrya: So we made it to the end of season five. Thank you to everybody who joined us for the whole way, any of the way, for this episode, whatever. You here and you could have been anywhere else. So thank you for being here with us. Yeah, that's it. We'll see y'all soon. Bye.

Erica: Peace out.

[theme music]

Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.

Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.

Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.

Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.

Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.

TRANSCRIPTS

Season 5 | Double Dippin' | S1, E1.5 | The Turn On x Leone Ross

Season 5 | Episode 10.5 | The Turn On x Claire Kann

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