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Season 5 | Double Dippin' | S2, E6 | I Will Survive

8/31/2022

Book, "Forbidden": Bookshop | Amazon
Author, Beverly Jenkins: Website | Facebook| Twitter
Book, "The Alchmemist": Bookshop | Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Hey, y'all.

Kenrya: Hey.

Erica: Erica, Killa. Two hoes, your favorite hoe hosts. We are here not leaving you with a dry gooch, here to quench your gooch.

Kenrya: Yep.

Erica: With another double dipping.

Kenrya: With a nice double dipping. Yeah.

Erica: Today we are going to replay Season two, Episode six, which is titled I Will Survive. In this episode, we read from OG Beverly Jenkins.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: You will hear my amazing California accent at the start of that episode.

Kenrya: Yes. Mark ass busters.

Erica: Mark ass busters. So Beverly Jenkins, she's an OG in the romance world, but she was one of the first to be doing the romance novels.

Kenrya: Well, and to put Black folks on her cover. And I remember, and I don't think I said this in the episode, but I remember I first learned about her from listening to Snap Judgment podcast. Yeah. And I was in a grocery store checkout line and was like...

Erica: "Oh shit!"

Kenrya: "Oh, I need to know more about her."

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: And this was before we even knew about we were going to do this show.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: But I remember you sent it to me.

Kenrya: Seed was planted.

Erica: The seed was planted. So I really like this episode because we talk a lot about being on your path to where you need to go.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: In the story, Eddy... We kept calling her Eddie.

Kenrya: We did.

Erica: Eddy, she had a will, she had a fire in her belly. She was like, "This is going to happen, and I am going to make it happen."

Kenrya: By any means.

Erica: Yeah. By any means, and the universe just kept pushing her in that direction in spite of things going crazy. And so we talked about that in the show and I thought it was really dope to hear both of us kind of, I think I was starting to articulate what it is that I do and want to do, and you know it, but it's interesting to see where you are now versus where you were, and how that has changed.

Kenrya: Yeah, I think in the interim, I quit my job.

Erica: You quit your job.

Kenrya: Again.

Erica: Yep.

Kenrya: And left the consultancy that was not great, and now I'm in one that I adore.

Erica: And I don't even know if you had your book fully fleshed out.

Kenrya: Which one?

Erica: Your current book that you're working on.

Kenrya: Oh, definitely not. Yeah.

Erica: And your current book that you're working on is still very much in that vein of what you're trying to do, or your mission, goal, purpose. Purpose. We called it a purpose. This was another episode where I'm like, "I hope y'all get something out of this," because it was a good one to hear us just kind of trying to figure this shit out.

Kenrya: How did it make you feel as you listened?

Erica: It was a little bittersweet because these were the episodes leading up to-

Kenrya: When you were going through cancer treatment?

Erica: Yeah. And so I was not knowing what was going to happen. I think at one point I was talking about a guy, or maybe it was the other one where you was like, "And he going to deal or he going to leave?"

Kenrya: That was the other one. That was before.

Erica: And I was like, Bitch, chill! Okay!" I look at pictures of myself the week before I got diagnosed and I'm like, "Wow, you ain't even know you was walking around with cancer in you." You know? And so as I'm listening to the episode, I'm thinking about both of us like, "If only they knew what life has in store for them," you know? And so I think that's generally how I feel going through all of this. It's just like, "Whoa. If only we knew."

Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah. I feel you. I think I also had a moment of not necessarily be careful with what you asked for, but be specific, you know what I'm asking?

Erica: Yes. Yep.

Kenrya: Yeah. Because one of the things that I didn't specifically articulate here, but at that point was percolating and in ended up on my... We do intention boards instead of vision boards. But I remember like one of the things that's on my board is, "Slow down."

Kenrya: Exactly. "Only focus your energy on the most important things." Well, Goddammit. I didn't say [crosstalk 00:05:05].

Erica: This ain’t how I needed to do it!

Kenrya: Right. Don't give me a disabling chronic illness that means that I literally only have enough energy-

Erica: That forces you to only [crosstalk 00:05:14]. Girl.

Kenrya: But I fucking asked for it. Right? God was like, "Gotcha. We going to teach you some stuff." And all that said, that's kind of the silver lining, which maybe sounds Pollyanna, but...

Erica: No. Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah. Like my shit's fucked up. But wait, I can see it on the side. This is one of my mobility aids. This is my grabber, my new grabber. So I don't have to bend down and get stuff.

Erica: Well, you said that in this episode. You were like, "Maybe that makes me seem Pollyanna, but it's all going to work out."

Kenrya: I was literally talking to God last night. I have always felt that things would just work out even when they felt their hardest.

Erica: If it's fucked up, it's not over because things don't end fucked up. Nope.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: If it ain't... Mm-mm (negative).

Kenrya: There's something to be mind there. And yeah, this shit sucks, but it pushed me to really be mindful of what work brings me joy and leave a lot of shit alone that I did not love and stop fucking with people who I didn't love, especially mostly professionally because I don't really fuck with people in real life.

Erica: I was about to say, "Who we gotta fight?"

Kenrya: But yeah, it forced me to put on my calendar my naps and my meals, which...

Erica: Girl because I used to be pissed at you.

Kenrya: For not eating? Yeah.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah. Because I was a workaholic and even if I wanted to be, I can't be anymore. It's forced me to.

Erica: Your body's like, "Oh you don't want to stop for a meal?"

Kenrya: "Bet. You're going to stay in bed for the rest of the day and tomorrow. You might not be a to get up until you have to pee. You're welcome."

Erica: Yeah. You're like, "Well, guess I'll go have a sandwich."

Kenrya: Exactly. I don't have a choice anymore. And so the lesson is be specific.

Erica: Be specific.

Kenrya: Yes. And also if things don't go exactly the way that you thought that they were going to, know that there's some kind of reason. I don't know what.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: But, we out here. We are.

Erica: We out here, we aight.

Kenrya: Exactly. Yeah.

Erica: All right. Well that's this episode. Get your wine, get whatever you need and enjoy.

Kenrya: Yay. Bye.

[theme music]

Kenrya: Come here. Get off.

Erica: Hey, mark busters.

Kenrya: Word.

Erica: Welcome to-

Kenrya: Trying on new accents?

Erica: Welcome to this week's episode of the Turn On. The reason that I'm using my LA mark buster-ass accent is because, we're reading from Beverly Jenkins’ 2016 novel called “Forbidden.” This is a historical romance novel, and the main character is moving out West. So in my mind, this is like the setup for all them Black people going out West.

Kenrya: I love it.

Erica: It makes sense, right?

Kenrya: Yes, it does. It always comes back.

Erica: Okay. So sit back, relax, get your wine, your weed, whatever you need and enjoy.

Kenrya: “Forbidden,” by Beverly Jenkins. "Would you like a bit of champagne?" In for a penny in for a pound, she thought to herself. "Just a little please." He walked over to the sideboard, opened the bottle, and poured some of the golden liquid into a lovely crystal flute and set it beside her cake plate. After pouring himself a portion, he returned to the table. "The way the candlelight is playing over you in that beautiful white blouse makes you look like an angel." She'd never been paid such a compliment before. "My thoughts are hardly angelic, however." "You're being incorrigible again." "A beautiful woman does that to a man. How many buttons are on your blouse?"

Kenrya: She looked down at them and then across the table at him. "Ten, maybe eleven." "Would you undo the first four for me, please?" Fork in hand, Eddy paused and studied him. "This is about the desire you wanted to learn more about." Realizing she'd set her own trap and hoping he didn't see the slight shake in her hands, she put the fork down. Singed by the heat in his eyes, she slowly honored his request, feeling her body bloom with each button she freed. "Thank you," he whispered. "I'm going to place kisses there when you finish your cake." Eddy dissolved. He was way too good at this. She'd expected kisses, not pure seduction.

Kenrya: Although she had enjoyed the angel food cake in the past, she barely tasted it because she was too busy thinking about his stated plans. In need of bolstering, she took a moment to sip her champagne. She then set aside the plate holding the remains of her cake. "Done?" She nodded. He stood. "Bring your champagne." On shaking legs, Eddy did as asked. He took her hand and led her the short distance to a wingback chair upholstered in a beautiful jewel-like dark blue. He sat and coaxed her to sit on his lap. "Hand me your champagne."

Kenrya: Having never sat on a man's lap before in her life, she handed him her flute, and he set it next to his on the small table near the chair. Gathering her in, he eased her close to his chest. The heat of his body melded with hers, and the light scent of his spicy cologne wafted gently to her nose. "I've never sat on a man's lap before. Can you feel me shaking?" "I can, so just relax. We have all evening." He kissed the top of her hair, and after a few moments of being held by him, her tension eased. "Better?" he asked. "Yes." "Good," he whispered. "Now, how about those kisses I promised?"

Kenrya: As his mouth descended to hers, Eddy tried to remain in control and not be swept away as she had been a few days ago in the kitchen of the boardinghouse, but she was still as new to passion as she was to the sweep of his fiery hands and lips. His mouth left hers to blaze a trail over the skin exposed by her opened blouse, and her pleasure-filled moan rose in the silence of the otherwise silent room. The tip of his tongue slipped over the edge of her new lace-edged shift, grazing the tops of her breasts, and for a moment she inanely wondered if he thought less of her for not wearing a corset. When his thumbs teased her already berried nipples and he slid the garment aside just enough to take the bud into his mouth, she was glad she refused to wear the constricting garment. Apparently he was, too.

Kenrya: Rising up, he held her eyes and husked out, "Undo more buttons for me." Eddy felt hot and scandalous, but gave him the boon. He rewarded her by easing the soft cotton down to free her breasts. He feasted in earnest, and a smoldering took root between her thighs. He claimed her lips again, and as his tongue played invitingly with hers, his large hand slid up and down her skirt-shrouded thigh. When that same hand slipped beneath to explore her stocking-encased limb, soft gasps escaped from her lips.

Kenrya: She heard him say, "I want to touch you, Eddy." Her skirt was rucked up high past her garter, and his palm was mapping the bare skin above it. He asked huskily, "Yes? No?" Her world was so hazy and she was so caught up in the storm she had no idea what he was asking. "Open your legs, darling. Let me feel your desire there too." Feeding on his voice she complied, and his bold touch followed. Then she knew what he'd been asking. Bewitching fingers circled, dallied. She arched and panted softly, "Rhine." "You're so wet." The storm gathering in her body grew stronger with each indrawn breath. "Rhine," she cried helplessly.

Kenrya: "Go ahead, darling. Let it come, baby. I have you." Her legs widened, his wicked fingers continued to bestow their enthralling magic. Suddenly, the storm broke, crackling through her body like summer lightning, and she was flung out to the stars, hoarsely screaming his name. Eddy didn't know how much time had passed, but when she opened her eyes he was smiling down. Still breathless, she asked, "What in heaven's name was that?" "An orgasm. When your body can't hold any more pleasure it explodes, sort of like Black powder. Did you enjoy it?"

Kenrya: Embarrassment heated her cheeks and she turned away. He gently turned her chin so she was again looking into his eyes. "There's no shame in anything we do together," he informed her quietly. "Only pleasure. Please don't ever be ashamed of enjoying yourself." She'd never felt anything like the orgasm before. Even now remnants lingered, slowly beating between her thighs in cadence with her heart and breath. "Do men have orgasms too?" "Yes, but doing it properly usually results in babies, and we don't want that right now." "No, we don't." But she wondered what a child made by the two of them might look like.

Kenrya: Turning her mind away from that, she noted how limp yet full she felt. The logical and levelheaded old Eddy was appalled at how free she'd been with him, while the newly awakened woman inside wondered how long she had to wait to experience it again. He repositioned her skirt and righted her shift. She shrugged back into her blouse and redid most of the buttons. "Thank you for the lesson." "You're welcome." He slid a worshipping finger down her cheek and he took on a serious air. "Marry me, Eddy." Hearing that, she sighed. "You know I can't. Please don't spoil our evening." "I'm not trying to, but I'm serious. Marry me."

Kenrya: She looked away for a long moment and wondered why he'd bring up such a subject after what they'd shared. Maybe she understood it but it changed nothing. Yes, she loved him, but that didn't change anything either. Turning back, she picked her words carefully. "You know what we'd be facing. It might look to be an easy road from where you sit, but it isn't. You're not Colored and I'm not White. Us being together is against the law almost everywhere." "But I'm not White either."

Erica: Welcome back you mark busters.

Kenrya: You're committed.

Erica: I know, I am. Hopefully you enjoyed the excerpt as much as we did. First, I am so hyped that we were able to get this story because it is a story by OG Beverly Jenkins.

Kenrya: Thee Beverly Jenkins.

Erica: She is like, I mean, most of you all who listen are familiar with romance but Beverly Jenkins is a big fucking deal, a BFD. I was introduced to her through you Kenrya. I think you sent me a podcast.

Kenrya: Yeah. And that's when I first learned about it.

Erica: I was just like, "Look at this Black woman out here just-

Kenrya: Fucking making history.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I mean, I feel like everyone heard about Zane and that kind of thing.

Kenrya: But she was way before that.

Erica: But she was way before that and just made it for us. Because I remember-

Kenrya: Putting Black people on covers when they wouldn't do that before.

Erica: Exactly. I remember when I was a kid, you're in a grocery store and you see the romance novels and that kind of thing, and in your mind it is very much a white woman's thing. And here we are with OG Beverly Jenkins.

Kenrya: I know.

Erica: OG Beverly Jenkins, buster.

Kenrya: It's a theme. We're going to talk to her soon, so it's really exciting. She was just so dope. She was like, "Sure you can use my book." We were like, "Oh, God."

Erica: No. I was like... This was definitely one of those moments where I was like, "Wait, what? She would let us use that shit?" I mean, I we have had some amazing talent and authors, and we've been blessed, but when Beverly Jenkins was like, "Yeah, of course." I was like, "Really? You sure? Are you sure about this?" So, yeah. With that said, Kenrya, give us a little bit of background on the story.

Kenrya: Okay. It's called “Forbidden” and that's for good reason. I don't want to give too much away, but I'll tell you some things that we learn right up front. There's two stars. The male lead is Rhine Fontaine.

Erica: Rhine Fontaine.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: I'm sorry. You all going to have to deal with my fucking accent this entire episode.

Kenrya: But so he's from Georgia.

Erica: Rhine Fontaine.

Kenrya: Yes. And so that sounds like the colonel like.

Erica: Yeah. It's like Andy Bernard.

Kenrya: Oh, God. Yes, it is.

Erica: Hello, my name is Rhine Fontaine. Okay, sorry.

Kenrya: So in the opening pages, we learn that he's formerly enslaved. He was raised on a plantation as a slave. His father was, his sperm donor was the slave owner. And his mom was one of the enslaved people living on a plantation. When the war came, he joined the Confederate Army, left, and then went to the Union side, and he is in the opening pages back at the plantation, where he grew up looking for his sister who he lost track of during the course of the war.

Kenrya: What we find out very quickly is that he looks like a white man. And he resolves that he is going to basically pass as white so that he can use his privilege in order to help Black folks. And that's where we start. Then the next scene, we meet Eddy Carmichael, who is a Black woman who she was born free. Her parents were free just before they got married. And she's getting mugged. She has her purse full of her money and her ticket to California that she has been-

Erica: California, buster.

Kenrya: Yes. ... saving up for the last year, and some nigga robs her. She's already given notice at her boarding house and given notice at her job at the hotel, and she's like, "I got to get out there by hook or by crook. Fuck it, I'm just going to make it." And so she's a cook and her dream is to open her own restaurant in California. And so she sets out with a carpet bag with just a couple of outfits in it, and a stove that she carries on her fucking head like a little cook stove. And she finds someone who's willing to let her cook in exchange to let her ride with him as far west as she can go.

Kenrya: And so in this way, she basically meets up with people and depends on the kindness of others in order to make her way out West. She ends up getting as far as Nevada, and then she trusts the wrong person, this suck ass nigga who claims he's a preacher who's taken a kid to an orphanage and he's going to Sacramento and she can ride with him. So all is going well until she meets this bitch-ass nigga who decides that he's going to fuck with her. He pretends to be a priest and he has this little boy, and he's like, "Yeah, I'm taking him to an orphanage in Sacramento. You can ride with us." And so she's not quite sure, but he's like, "I'm a man of God. I would never hurt you." ’Til they get like two hours outside of town, and he pulls over the horse and buggy and is like, "I'm trying to fuck."

Erica: Fuck, fight, or hitchhike?

Kenrya: Exactly.

Erica: That's fucked up.

Kenrya: And she's like, "No, fuck you." She's a virgin too, and she's like not on that shit. And he's like, "Well, then give me your money." So he robs her and then throws her out into the middle of the fucking desert in the middle of the day. So she's trying to walk but she barely has any water. She ends up passing out and just as she falls to the ground, Rhine Fontaine-

Erica: Rhine Fontaine.

Kenrya: ... sees her across the sand and comes and saves her, and nurses her back to health.

Erica: Okay. All right, so and hijinks ensue.

Kenrya: Hijinks ensue.

Erica: Dot, dot, dot.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: I feel like this story is just really about knowing what your purpose is, knowing what you're supposed to do, and doing it. I feel like for me, finding my purpose, I thought that knowing my purpose would be this divine like, "This is your purpose. Your purpose is to do X, Y and Z."

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: Where as now it's like-

Kenrya: Why did you think that?

Erica: Because I feel like that was one of those things you were just kind of told. I mean, when you listen to Oprah or whoever they're like, "My purpose is to get little Black girls into school." Like, it seems so specific.

Kenrya: Yeah. And there's like this moment when the sky opens up and the Lord speaks down to you.

Erica: Exactly. I feel like it's evident in this story, and I feel like it's been evident in my life that, your purpose doesn't necessarily evolve. It doesn't necessarily come out like that. Yes, I do feel like some people know, "Specifically, this is my purpose." But for me, I feel like my purpose has been more of a feeling, more of a push towards something. I feel like I'm finding my purpose. I feel like I know what my purpose is, but I couldn't specifically articulate it in three sentences. You follow me? I feel like my purpose now in life is to help women, Black women become more in touch with their bodies and their sexuality. Be it through what we're doing here or Black women as they deal with cancer and different traumatic things. But I feel like that's slowly been my purpose.

Kenrya: So it's been evolving. You've been coming into it.

Erica: It's been evolving but it has started out as a, look, I know I like this sex shit and so we going to ride this and see where it takes us. And I feel like that's kind of the situation with Eddy in this story, where she's like, "Look, I got to get out West. I want this. I want a restaurant. This is my purpose." But we just don't-

Kenrya: The how's and the-

Erica: We just going to let this shit happen. Yeah. How about you? How is-

Kenrya: I mean, I will say that it has evolved to a degree in terms of the way that I approach it. But I think in hindsight, it's always pretty much been the same. So I do have a sentence that I use that describes what I do, because it wraps up a lot of different things, and it's to amplify the lived experiences and advocacy of Black folks. And to shift the narrative around who deserves liberty and justice and equity in America. That's what it comes down to. And so all the different things that I do, writing about white supremacy and helping people have babies as a doula to start off strong life families, and doing this podcast. I find that they all kind of fit under this one umbrella, which is really to do those things. But so the way that I've approached it has varied, like when I was in college and shortly after, I wanted to start a magazine for young Black girls, which you just reminded me of the other day. That was my shit.

Erica: My question is, did you, because you have yours in a neat sentence, like you have a... I hear and see all the time people are like, "Write it down, make it plain. Write it down, make it plain." When did you get there? And do you feel like it's helped crystallize where you're going?

Kenrya: Well, I have to have that sentence because of what I do. Right? So being a speaker and all of that shit, and having my bio on all these different places, I had to boil my shit down. So it took a lot of sitting with it and trying to figure out something, a statement that really encompasses all of the things. Like I said, it's evolved over, the wording of it has changed a bit even as the approach to it has changed. But it's kind of just been a necessity because I have to sell myself all the fucking time. It's like having an elevator pitch, you have to have something that you use to sell yourself and your work so that you can get work.

Kenrya: But then there's always these new opportunities to refine it. A couple of weeks ago, I was working on an artist statement for a grant that I was applying to. And I had an artist statement, but when I looked back at it, it was shitty. So I threw it away and started all over again. And I really love what came out of it and it uses some of those elements, but then a lot of it is completely new but still gets at the same thing. It was just another way to approach it, that really honestly made me really excited again about what I'm doing.

Erica: Good. See, I don't have an elevator pitch. On one hand I'm like, "Who needs it?" But on another hand, I feel like as we move into this, as I grow and have a better idea of what I want to do or what this purpose looks like for me, I feel like I need to somehow come up with it.

Kenrya: Crystallize it.

Erica: Like crystallize it.

Kenrya: It's definitely, if you stay ready, you ain't got to get ready situation.

Erica: And it also gives you a guiding point like, "This is what I say I want to do. Does this fit into that?"

Kenrya: Yes. It helps you be more intentional.

Erica: Oh, yeah. Again, me with all the words and Kenrya with one, to help figure it out. But yeah, so Eddy really has, she knows, "This is what I got to do. This is the way I need to make it work." Well not even the way I need to make it work, "This is what I got to do."

Kenrya: Just this is what I'm going to do. Yeah.

Erica: It's interesting because I was talking to, actually I was talking to a girlfriend about divorce the other day, and I was telling her that once... I don't like to talk to people about like, if people are on the fence like, "Should I stay? Should I go?" that kind of thing, I don't like to-

Kenrya: You don't want to be the one.

Erica: Yeah. I know what I did and it worked out for me but I don't want to be the one like, "Girl, it's good over here in the voice land."

Kenrya: It is though.

Erica: It is, but don't let me be the reason that you decide that, and I say all the time.

Kenrya: If you get back with nigga, I ain’t trying to have y'all side eyeing my ass."

Erica: Exactly. Because I still like come to cookouts. But I feel like I hit a point in my marriage where I was like, "I cannot be here anymore. I have to leave. This is untenable. There's no way in the world that this is going to work out with my sanity."

Kenrya: That moment is tantalizing.

Erica: I feel like part of that was I got there also with my purpose. I am currently working in a very corporate America office situation. And then it was on my spirit to be like, "Bitch, gospel of good sex. Sell the gospel of good sex." For me like it is in my spirit to help women become more in touch with who they are sexually and be more comfortable, and have comfortable conversations around sex and sexuality.

Kenrya: Look at what you just did. We going to write that down. It'll be in the transcript.

Erica: We going to have to pull it out from the transcript. But it's amazing because now that I am here and I got it, I'm like, "Oh, shit." And then I tell people and they're like, "Bitch, this been who you've been all along." It's just so great and it's liberating, but at the same time really fucking scary.

Kenrya: Why is it scary?

Erica: Because it's like, I went to school and this is what I did, and you build your entire life based on one thing or what you think you're going to do. And then you have this internal draw, this purpose that's like, "Yo bitch, no. This is what you're going to do, and you just got to do it." I have no idea how this is going to work out, like no idea what it's going to look like, what it's going to be, but I know I got to do this and so I'm just kind of like, "Okay, God. You put this on my spirit, you're going to make this shit happen.”

Kenrya: You know I know what that feels like.

Erica: Exactly.

Kenrya: Yeah, yeah.

Erica: Tell me where are you?

Kenrya: I don't even know. I'm just in a place where I realize that certain aspects of my career don't work for me. And so I blew them shits up. I mean, even just looking at personal life, like you started out with talking about when you realized you had to get a divorce. For me, getting a divorce was not a sad situation for me. Once I realized that I was done, I was done, all the sadness and all that shit had already happened. The hard part was that I had invested so much time and energy into the way that I thought my life was supposed to go, and having to really sit down and take stock of that and realize that that shit was done, and I was starting over when I had this plan where I thought my life was going to go. Right?

Kenrya: So it was like, "Oh, okay. I'll finish undergrad, I'll work for two years, I'll go to grad school for two years, I'll meet someone who I love. I'll marry them in a couple of years. We'll be married for two years, and then we'll have a kid after that." That was my plan. Always my plan. And I pretty much did exactly, I did exactly that. And when I had to really look at the fact that I had a plan, and I worked the plan and it was still shitty, it really put me in a tailspin because it was like, "Well then what the fuck am I supposed to be doing?" It really took me sitting and honestly talking to God a lot, and realizing that it was okay that it didn't work out the way that I thought it was supposed to be. Because it was just preparing me for something that was better and that was really and truly for me. But the idea of starting from what felt like square one was frightening to me.

Erica: Yeah. It's interesting, this is a little off topic, but I was talking to my aunt, during I don't know if it was right after I got diagnosed with breast cancer, but we were talking and all of that and she's just like, "This is so unfair. You did everything right. You did everything right. This is so unfair." And I'm just like... I mean, yes, it's fucked up. This has not been an easy road, but at the same time, like-

Kenrya: What are you going to do?

Erica: I can't do shit about it. I can't do shit about it and so as opposed to sitting around, "Woe is me. Why is this?" that kind of thing. Like be in your feelings. I have a friend who says, "Yes, you can be any feelings just don't start getting mail there. Don't move in. Don't start getting mail there."

Kenrya: That's real shit.

Erica: And so I was like, "Okay. Yes, this is definitely not what I thought or where I thought I'd be, but we're here. So now what we going to do about it?" Back to the book, Eddy had this plan, and although her plan kept like getting fucked up and going a million different places... I remember I read the Alchemist. Everybody read “The Alchemist.” The one thing that stood out for me is that the universe conspires for-

Kenrya: For your favor.

Erica: ... for your favor. If you're doing what you're supposed to do, even a fucking mistake is going to work in your favor. I feel like this story is just much more of that. You fail up. Don't I say white men fail up, they do. But I feel like when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, if you're doing what God has for you, or what your spirits tell you you're supposed to be doing, like even the fuck-ups are going to work in your favor. Eddy ended up getting sexually assaulted, beat up on the side of the road, but for somehow whatever reason, it all led to this situation with Rhine Fontaine. Can you think of a situation where you were like, "This is what is supposed to happen, bam, bam, bam, and then..." I'm the worst with asking questions, but you get what I'm saying. Have you had a situation where, what might have been a fuck-up favored you?

Kenrya: Marriage, fuck. I mean, it should not have happened, but it was obviously supposed to happen. I got my little love out of it, and it was all fucked up. And I am so much better.

Erica: Yeah, you got your lessons from it.

Kenrya: Yeah. And not to say that I think you have to go through trauma in order to be better, because I think this idea that you have to suffer in order to be the best version of yourself is fucked up bullshit.

Erica: No, I'm good. I'll let you all suffer. Send me the Cliffs Notes.

Kenrya: Yeah. I remember at one point when I had gotten pretty far into my sobriety from being codependent and our therapist was like, "So, if you had to do all of this again, would you?" And I was like, "Fuck no." I was like, "If I can get to here and just go to therapy and get healthy, and not have been with abusive men and been with cheating-ass men and all the other things that happened that ended up being traumatic around intimate relationships, I wouldn't do that shit again." There's no part of me that feels that that was what I needed to go through to get here. It just is what my path was. But I don't harbor some delusion that it made me.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. I have gotten a lot more comfortable taking Ls now in life, now that I recognize that sometimes this L, it might not be what you think. This ain't for you right now. I'm a firm believer that, what is for you, is for you and it's going to make its way to you.

Kenrya: That's right.

Erica: And not to say that I sit around just waiting for shit to happen, but at the same time, I firmly recognize that, you know what, sometimes I think this is for me, but it ain't quite.

Kenrya: It's true. I mean, I think that I have that same attitude, and I think it's made me a relentless optimist, which may sometimes seem at odds with other parts of me, but it is true. I am eternally like just going to be fine. It's going to be fine. Which is probably annoying to some people, but-

Erica: Yeah. I mean, I feel like when you've been through some bullshit... I hate... Okay. Let me say it and then I'll go back. I feel like when you've been through some bullshit, you're able to be like, "You know what? It's going to be okay." Now, as I say, I hate hearing that sometimes because I feel like there's these, I think we just touched on this but I think there's these people... I can't think of the word. People romanticize the struggle.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: It's like, "No, I don't want to..." It's kind of like when people will be like, "Our kids are punks. We make it too easy on our kids."

Kenrya: Isn't that the goal?

Erica: Aren't we supposed too?

Kenrya: Don't we want them to have it better than we did?

Erica: Even raising my child I think about how I'm like, "When I was his age I could do X, Y, Z." And it's like, "But no, bitch. Just because you could you shouldn't have been doing it."

Kenrya: Exactly. We have those conversations all the time, like having had kind of rough upbringing it's like, "Okay, just because I was staying in the house by myself when I was five don't mean that that's what my child should be doing." I think sometimes we talk about this balance between, giving them tools right to be able to do shit and not making them lazy. So you want to like, right. You want them to know how to do things but you want it to be age appropriate and not overload them in the same ways that we were overloaded. We want to be able to make their lives better than ours were. It's a tough balancing act.

Erica: It totally is. So back to the eternal optimism, I definitely feel like I am that type of person too. I'd just be winging it on some shit. Winging it, and I just feel like if this is for me, then it's going to work. And if it falls apart, then guess what, it just wasn't for me, and the right thing will come along.

Kenrya: Yeah, I agree. That's essentially what Eddy is doing as she makes her way across the country. So she's like, "I'm going to trust this person." That was another thing that came up for me was about trust, and how to know who you can trust and who you can't. She just kind of follows her intuition and it only gets her in trouble once, and it was with a fucking liar and we've all been there.

Erica: And she felt she kind of-

Kenrya: She still knew something wasn't quite right, and she ignored it.

Erica: Exactly.

Kenrya: And every time I've ignored my gut I ended up in some trouble.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: So that's, not that it's her fault obviously, but it's just one of the things that I've been working to do is to trust my intuition more.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that we've been taught for so long to ignore our gut, that we do and then... I mean, if you think about like, I think about seedy guys that I've like, or seedy situations. I felt-

Kenrya: You knew something.

Erica: I knew and I couldn't put my finger on it. And so now I am so much more willing to just-

Kenrya: Bye, nigga.

Erica: Like with no rhyme or reason. I had somebody reach out to me this morning on some like, "Hey, I know you should have had your surgery by now. How are you healing?" And he was like, "I've been reaching out to you." And I was like, "Don't talk to me no more." It was literally like, "I'm doing well. Thanks for checking. Don't call me no more."

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: There's like a bunch of nuance into why I feel this way. Yes, I could explain it-

Kenrya: But why? You don't owe him anything.

Erica: ... but I don't owe you shit. I don't owe you shit. We had our time, it was great while it lasted. And so now it's not our time anymore." And so, I am learning to lean into that gut a whole lot more. It also takes an amazing amount of faith in God for me. Right before my divorce, I started going to church hard. I really, really renewed my-

Kenrya: We were there constantly. Are we now?

Erica: Yeah, been lately but not... But I'm still there, like still there spiritually. I feel like it was just preparation for what was going to be happening. I mean I didn't even realize it but it was just like, you know what? You've got to get to a point where you ain't going to know what the fuck to do. And it's crazy because like people talk about how you're just like... I've gotten to points, shit, just in this breast cancer journey or like I don't even know what the fuck I'm praying for. I'm literally just like, "My God." That's the only thing that I can say because I don't even know what the fuck I'm praying for. Girl, I'm about to be in this bitch crying, because it's just like, I don't even know. I just know that I need you right now. And as you continue to like, as I move forward in life I'm finding that sometimes I don't even know what i need.

Kenrya: Your will be done is all you got.

Erica: Your will be done. Makes this shit happen.

Kenrya: That was my prayer this morning.

Erica: Yeah, like make some shit happen. You just do whatever you need to do and I am going to be receiving. Actually I was talking to Pam, Pastor Pam who was one of our guests last season.

Kenrya: In the first season, yeah.

Erica: It was the same conversation where I told her I had breast cancer. I was telling her that right now I'm in a season of receiving. I'm just receiving whatever the Lord sends my way. Good, bad, indifferent, whatever, I'm just going to accept it and receive it, and move accordingly.

Kenrya: And you've been doing a great job of it.

Erica: Girl, honey. I've been [inaudible 00:38:26]. I'm thinking I'm tumbled around. Thank you, boo. But yeah, I have hit a point where I am just like, you know what, I have no idea what's happening here. I have a feeling about what I need to be doing, back again to Eddy, I got a feeling about what's supposed to happen, but I'm just going to move forward with pure intentions in my heart, and doing what I feel is best and I promise you, God, Lord, spirits, whoever is going to make away and make sure that things line up properly.

Kenrya: God provides. Jehovah Jireh.

Erica: Jehovah Jireh. So with that said, I mean, we're here to talk about what? Sex.

Kenrya: Sex.

Erica: So Eddy runs into this gentleman, Rhine Fontaine, who interestingly enough helps her make her way through this, navigate her way through this shitty little world, and further get to what she's supposed to be doing.

Kenrya: Yes, it's true. And we can't tell too much because I don't want to spoil the book, but yeah, a lot of what happens, I mean we can get into their relationship a bit, is that they feel drawn to each other in ways that they can't understand or explain exactly.

Erica: As evidenced in the excerpt we read.

Kenrya: Right. And she's totally unexperienced. She had really given up on the idea of ever being with a man or having kids or anything. And so the idea of being with a man who she believes to be white is totally fucking frightening to her because it's illegal, and she doesn't know what that would do to her life or to his life, and he is wealthy and has all this influence. And he's not sure what he's supposed to do with that, because he doesn't want to give up the work that he's able to do because he is passing as white. It was interesting because I never really thought of passing as being something that can have a positive.

Erica: Yeah. You think of passing as like an easy way out.

Kenrya: Yeah. And in this case-

Erica: He's doing it as an act of resistance.

Kenrya: Exactly that. It's especially in the end, I have more empathy because he had literally been raised as an enslaved person and was just like, "Yo. That shit is for the fucking birds, and my people are going through it. Here is my best way that I can do something about it." It kind of turns some things on their head. I was just talking to my kid about passing, we were just having this conversation.

Erica: Y'all have about the most interesting conversations.

Kenrya: We do. I love it because she can hold so many things at the same time even being so young. I just love that she has the tools to be able to understand a lot of shit. So we were talking about Alexander Hamilton. She was like, "I mean, but he looked white." And I was like, "Well, he does." I was like, "But his mom was Black." I was like, "And he did something that's called passing, where he lived his life as a white person." It allowed him to have all of this power and to do all of these things, some of which are still biting us in the fucking ass like the Electoral College and the system of capitalism in the United States. [crosstalk 00:41:48]. But we talked about that too.

Kenrya: And I was like, "There are people who are able to do that and some of them choose to do it, and some of them choose not to." And then we talked about some people who we know, who could technically pass if they wanted to, but that they identify as Black and they are proud in that, and that is the way that they move through the world. And so it was really interesting to see through a very young person's eyes like what that meant, because she was just baffled. She was like, "I mean, but that nigga look white. I don't understand."

Erica: Well, I think that... Again, this is why Beverly Jenkins is OG Beverly Jenkins. Because she took such a-

Kenrya: What could be a contentious-

Erica: It's so layered, and was able to wrap this shit up in a love story, and a story about a bad bitch being a bad bitch, and surviving. So in the scene that we read, it is very clear that Eddy is a-

Kenrya: Novice.

Erica: I don't even want to say a virgin like, I mean she looked at the dick, and she probably like-

Kenrya: Oh my God, right.

Erica: "I do declare."

Kenrya: She is not so bad.

Erica: I mean there's something about, Eddy.

Kenrya: It's funny because I kept saying Eddy too, but I'm like, "Well, that shit's spelled Eddy."

Erica: Yeah. Something about Eddy just gives me fiery, just Black, like you know how there's just like grannies that are just like just good stock. I mean, like that cast iron skillet is the best thing that I can think of, just like dependable, going to get some shit done. It's just, "Oh."

Kenrya: Her word is her bond. And also, there's some stuff that happens in the course of the book where you're like, "Yes, bitch."

Erica: Oh, yeah. [crosstalk 00:43:48]. I'm like, "Oh, she's a badass." And so, no, I don't think she would like, "I do declare," but it's very because she's such a, I don't want to say a strong Black woman, but because she's such a strong character-

Kenrya: She's self-possessed.

Erica: She is self-possessed. She knows who the fuck she is and what the fuck she's here for. It's this scene itself is very different from who she is.

Kenrya: It's an unraveling.

Erica: Yeah, because she's like vulnerable as fuck.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). In all the ways.

Erica: But it's so sexy.

Kenrya: Yeah. It was interesting because I don't really tend to do historical anything, it's not really my bag. So this is the first historical romance I think I've ever read maybe. And it was interesting how like, he starts out by telling her to unbutton four buttons on her shirt and I'm like, "Why is this so sexy?" Because my titties be out all the time already.

Erica: I know. But to me it was really hot, just on the like, "So this is what I'm about to do to you."

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: And because she has no idea, in her head like having a fucking meltdown like, "Whoo." Because it's just like, he's like, "Unbutton your buttons," and she's like, "What the fuck? I'm sitting out here with my titties out."

Kenrya: He's like, "I'm going to put kisses there."

Erica: Yeah, you're completely vulnerable and exposed. And then he's like, "And then this is what I'm going to do to you." So then you're not only thinking about how it's going to feel for him to do this, but then like, "Oh my God, this is so scandalous. I'm out here with my titties." It was just such a great scene because it just, it showed how, yes, she is self-possessed and a woman of strength, but [inaudible 00:45:52].

Kenrya: I know.

Erica: But at the same time, she's still a girl that wants to-

Kenrya: "I'm just a girl standing in front of a boy."

Erica: Okay. Is that from “Love Is Blind”?

Kenrya: Waiting for you to love me or some shit. Asking you to love me, no, it's “Grey's Anatomy” bitch. Meredith says it to Derek.

Erica: I'm fucking rolling my eyes.

Kenrya: But then she says, "Choose me," and then I'm like, "Okay. No, let's not do that."

Erica: I'm thinking about, "I'm just a girl something... in the world."

Kenrya: Is that Gwen Stefani?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Okay.

Erica: No doubt, yeah. A girl from the Midwest and from the ’90s, we were all into ska music. Anyway-

Kenrya: “Don't Speak” was my shit.

Erica: What was?

Kenrya: “Don't Speak.”

Erica: (Singing). Sorry.

Kenrya: It was before she went off the deep end with the appropriation.

Erica: So side note, her in that video with the Mexican ladies and like, how did that fly?

Kenrya: Did you listen? That and then all the hard you who love or shit. Like she just-

Erica: Oh my God. I forgot about that.

Kenrya: She's like a fucking appropriator [inaudible 00:47:05].

Erica: She brought them out like, "Hey, let's trot out the little Japanese character." Oh my gosh, how did we let this happen?

Kenrya: We were young. I don't know.

Erica: Oh my gosh.

Kenrya: Yeah, it was bad. I mean I stopped fucking with her music around that time, it didn't speak to me anymore. But back when it was her and No Doubt [crosstalk 00:47:25].

Erica: No Doubt was my shit. Actually I might have to listen to No Doubt this afternoon.

Kenrya: I know. It was good.

Erica: Oh my goodness. Okay. Back to all of this. Let's bring it back, bring it back. The scene was just great because for me this scene is like the one scene that's unlike who Eddy has been through the book. Through the book she is a badass but in this scene she's really like truly giving herself up to the, what's about to happen here.

Kenrya: Well in a relationship, because she gave herself up to what was going to happen when she was moving her way across the country, but when it came to dealing with men, it was very much like she's literally buttoned up.

Erica: Because every single, not every single, most of her interactions with Rhine Fontaine have been very like, "I have a wall. It's impenetrable." And finally, she let it down. She unbuttoned them four buttons and said, "Pladow! How you like me now?"

Kenrya: And it was cool too, because like him telling her what he was going to do, it was a seduction, but it was also informative because she legit knew nothing.

Erica: Had no idea. That makes me think, were you surprised by your first orgasm?

Kenrya: With a partner? Because I had been having orgasms for a long time.

Erica: Yeah, I had been masturbating for a while.

Kenrya: I'm trying to remember the first time I came with a partner.

Erica: Yeah, I don't see the thing is here.

Kenrya: I don't even remember.

Erica: I take that question back. Because by the time I was a fucking men, well fucking people, I was making myself come. I was masturbating from, I was tapping that button from early on.

Kenrya: A very young age. Most people do.

Erica: And so I knew that I can feel this way and this is how it's supposed to happen. So okay.

Kenrya: I am legit trying to remember the first time I had an orgasm with a partner and I can't. I mean I've always been able to come with people because I had been masturbating so long that I knew what I needed.

Erica: Yeah. With the exception of maybe like losing my virginity, I have made it. I've always been intentional about the fact that like, "We're having sex, I'm going to have an orgasm. So, are you going to be part of it, or it's going to happen?"

Kenrya: With or without you.

Erica: With or without you. Like the first time it's like, very performative, but I caught on very early on that like, "Oh, this is, if we're going to play, we need to make sure we have the ball."

Kenrya: Exactly. Yeah. I can't even remember, honestly.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Wow. All right. Well, that wraps up this week's episode-

Kenrya: On Kenrya’s Swiss cheese brain.

Erica: Trauma. All right, well, thank you for joining us this week. This is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes making it clap.

Kenrya: Bitch, we clapped at the same time this time!

[theme music]

Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.

Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.

Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.

Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.

Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.

Season 5 | Double Dippin' | S2, E4 | Second Time Around

8/17/2022

Book, "A Taste of Her Own Medicine": Bookshop | Amazon
Author, Tasha L. Harrison: Website | Twitter | Instagram

The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information.

TRANSCRIPT
Erica: Okay. Hey, y'all we're back to quench some gooches. Kenrya's like, "No."

Kenrya: I'm on mute cause I was naming the episode and I didn't want y'all to hear me typing.

Erica: Clickity clack, clack, clickity clack.

Kenrya: Exactly. And then I was just laughing into the void where no one could hear me.

Erica: Okay, this week we are going to listen to season two episode four titled, Second Time Around, which is... This was a good one.

Kenrya: It is a good one, you picked a great one. It is in a lot of ways our lives, which we said on the show.

Erica: Right?

Kenrya: Yeah. Like this is like...

Erica: That was the episode that I said I had breast cancer. It was like that again. I was like, yo, we was in our bag on that bitch, that was a good episode.

Kenrya: Every time I hear that term, even though it predates this, I think of that meme with...

Erica: With the bitches.

Kenrya: The two Black chicks, with the bags on their feet...

Erica: Me too! Me too! In our bag.

Kenrya: We've been ruined by meme culture.

Erica: Yes. That was a really good episode.

Kenrya: That was us.

Erica: And I liked that it... Because it was talking about divorce, and I feel like each season has themes.

Kenrya: Really?

Erica: Yeah, and season two was definitely about divorce, independence, learning who you are, that kind of thing because the other one about to do... But yeah, I got warm and fuzzies when I listened to this episode, cause I was like, this was a good one.

Kenrya: It was a good one. I listened to the reading, which I don't always do because I'm like, that's a lot of Kenrya, when she was talking about sucking dick or no, about being rough. And she was like, I don't think my ex has ever... I don't know that she'd ever done that with him or whatever. And I just wrote "bitch ass nigga ex-husband" in my notes.

Erica: Yes. Bitch ass nigga ex-husband.

Kenrya: Bitch ass nigga ex-husband. That's all.

Erica: Yeah. I mean that was a wild one.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Also, just thinking about how far we've come and I think I was talking about a nigga I had just met.

Kenrya: Yeah you were because you were like...

Erica: I told him I had...

Kenrya: Some of the ignorant shit that they said about you having cancer.

Erica: “Your pussy ain't going nowhere.”

Kenrya: Right, right.

Erica: “You get a mastectomy in your pussy?” Like no.

Kenrya: Yeah, definitely in listening to this, I was like, “Ugh, fuck that dude.”

Erica: Yeah, he got...

Kenrya: Yes he did.

Erica: Curbed [crosstalk 00:03:07]. Yeah, this was a good one. I just feel like that this episode really... It shows us where we were in a specific time, but at the same time, like really... And this was right before we knew the pandemic was hitting. So, it was also just... It was a very different time.

Kenrya: It's like a time capsule, but also, I remember listening to it and being like, maybe people will really get something out of this episode.

Erica: I hope so. I feel like this one, people will.

Kenrya: I mean, obviously I hope y'all get something out of every episode. That's why we do it, but this one just felt very personal. Like we shared a lot of shit.

Erica: It definitely felt like we were journaling or...

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: [inaudible 00:03:57].

Kenrya: And it was still early enough that we weren't re-sharing stuff. You know what I'm saying? Because, now we in season five. First of all, I be having to remember if I told the story already because yeah. But there was still so much unshared at that point and this, because of the subject matter of the book, it was just like, we was like, let's go.

Erica: Yeah. Let's see where it takes us.

Kenrya: Here's all of our stuff. Exactly. Yeah.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: So this is a tender one.

Erica: (Singing).

Kenrya: (Singing).

Erica: (Singing). And with that wine, weed, whatever you need.

Kenrya: Wait, can I just say? So y'all, Erica comes up with the songs for the episodes because if y'all haven't noticed, all of the whole episodes, the non-interviews, are named after songs. If you didn't notice, I don't know how you could not notice that, but just in case. And she sends them to me so I can do the graphics.

Erica: Sometimes Kenrya will be like "Bitch, a white woman?" I'm like, “Okay, I'll find a new one.”

Kenrya: Yeah. So they're all like...

Erica: I only use old, unproblematic, white friends.

Kenrya: Yeah but I don't think any of those have made it through because...

Erica: They don't.

Kenrya: I'm always like, “No.”

Erica: It's like every time I try to propose, I'm like, “Okay, she's unproblematic,” and Kenrya's like, “Nope.”

Kenrya: Yeah. Because I think it was Kelly Clarkson the last time it was a white person and no, not problematic but you know, it's just like on Crissel and West.

Erica: She gonna do something and we gonna be like, you know what, now we got to update everything.

Kenrya: Exactly. Yeah, we never do. But what I was going to say is every time I then go to do social, the songs be stuck in my head.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: So I'm like walking around singing the most... Usually the songs be like from our childhood, it'd be like old ass R&B, which is great.

Erica: Again, I'm in my auntie bag.

Kenrya: Yes, but it would be songs that I completely forgot about and then they'd be so good and they be stuck in my head just from doing social or whatever. So thank you for that gift of remembering songs that I once truly loved.

Erica: You're welcome.

Kenrya: Yes. Thank you.

Erica: All right.

Kenrya: Okay. Now y'all can listen.

Erica: Bye.

[theme music]

Kenrya: Come here. Get off.

Erica: Tay Keith, fuck these niggas up. Is that what he's saying?

Kenrya: I think so, yes.

Erica: I don't know if he be fucking things up anyway. Tay Keith you always have a place in my heart for that... “Before I Let Go.” Nonetheless.

Kenrya: I love it.

Erica: Hey you all. Welcome to this week’s episode of The Turn On. This week we are going to jump right in it. We are reading “A Taste of Her Own Medicine,” which was published in 2019 by Tasha L. Harrison. This book came highly recommended by two of our listeners, Michelle and Nicole, and this one hits a little close to home. Sit back, relax, get your wine, get your weed, get your whatever you need, and enjoy.

Kenrya: “A Taste of Her Own Medicine,” by Tasha L. Harrison. The hand between my leg shifted to cup me more fully, the heel of his hand creating a delicious pressure against my mound. I rolled my hips and a bright spark of pleasure made my eyes roll back in my head. "Poor baby," he whispered. "Your tight little pussy still aching, huh?" This kind of talk, this dirty talk, I always thought it was silly. I wondered how it could be sexy, but I swear when he asked me about my tight, aching pussy, all I could do was nod. "I know it is. I'm aching for you too."

Kenrya: He shifted in his seat and his right hand grabbed his dick. I watched him, mesmerized by the way he handled himself, wondering if he wanted me to handle him that roughly. I was never rough with Eric, he didn't like it that way, but could I be that way with Atlas? "Hey," he said softly, drawing my attention back to his face. "What were you going to do to me when you reached for my pants by the falls," he asked? Now that the moment passed, I suddenly felt shy about my thoughts and actions in that moment. "I didn't really think it through. I just wanted to feel you in my hands." "Hmm," he grunted. "You still want to?"

Kenrya: Just like that, with that simple suggestion, my palms tingled wanting that intimate caress. "Yes," I said with a nod. "I want you to. Can you?" he begged. "Right here," I asked glancing around? It was dusk and the parking lot was full of cars, but no one was walking around. "Right here, upstairs, I don't care where. I just need you to touch me. I don't think I can spend another night like this." We kissed again and I felt him tremble when my hand rested on his chest. He was practically vibrating. "Right here," I said. "I can't go upstairs with you. If I go upstairs." He nodded, understanding the things I left unsaid. I wanted him, there was no denying that, but so much had happened today and I'd crossed so many boundaries, and I knew that if I went upstairs with him I was going to want more than just a touch, more than just a kiss. His hands wouldn't be enough.

Kenrya: "Okay," he agreed, then glanced around the still quiet parking lot. "Right here." I gathered up his soft t-shirt and slipped my hand under it to touch his muscled chest and drifted lower to caress his belly, the ridged topography of his abdomen. When my fingers tangled in the trail of hair that led to the place between his legs, his whole body quaked. "You okay?" "Yes, I just want your hands on me." "Okay," I whispered and tugged at the drawstring of his sweats. His desire was so acute it seemed like physical pain. I knew and understood how that felt. It's the same way I felt in the greenhouse, but I'd never known anyone to feel that way about me.

Kenrya: The dusk deepened around us, casting the world outside the car in shadow. It made the interior of the Subaru feel cocoon like. Condensation formed on the windows adding to that secretive intimacy as I reached into his pants. He was big and hard in his pants and pulsed when my knuckles skimmed the silky fabric of his boxer briefs. I broke away from the kiss to look down at him, to watch myself reach into his boxers and take him in my hand. He was smooth and velvety soft against my palm. Atlas hissed and lifted his hips to tug down his pants a little further. His dick, now free of its constraints, leaped into my hand. I closed my hand into a loose fist and drew it up his length. "Oh God, Sonja," he breathed. His head fell back against the headrest. I looked at him. God he was so damn beautiful. His eyes were closed and his thick lashes made dark shadows on his sculpted cheek bones. He rolled his hips, urging me silently to draw my hand down his thick length and back up again.

Kenrya: He swallowed and I tracked the way his Adam's apple bobbed. I had no idea what I was doing. It'd been more than a year since I'd even touched a man intimately, and I'd only ever been with my husband. "Hey," I whispered. Atlas opened his eyes and looked at me. "Show me how you like it." I drew my hand up his length again. "Do you like it hard or soft? Do you want me to put my mouth on it?" "Shit," he cursed and his dick grew harder in my hand if that was even possible and a bead of precum formed at the tip. I leaned over and lapped it up. "Jesus Soni." "Show me how to please you," I begged softly. His big hand closed around mine, tightening my grip, then drew both of our hands up and over the fat, wet tip of his dick. On the downstroke he thrust upward, forcing himself through my clenched fist. The sight of it was so erotic that my pussy clenched, releasing a gush of moisture that dampened the crotch of my leggings.

Kenrya: Needing him inside of me in some way, I wrapped my lips around the tip of him again and he whimpered. "Like that," I whispered? "Hard, but slow, like this?" I asked, squeezing him and drawing my hand up over the tip. "Yes," he nodded, thrusting into my hand again. "Just like that." He hooked his hand around the back of my neck and pulled me in. His kiss was deeper, hungrier, more reckless. It took all of my willpower to keep my pants on, to keep my ass in my seat, to keep from sitting on that beautiful dick in my hands. Atlas grasped at me, kissed me hard, then pulled away to watch, seemingly torn between wanting me closer and wanting me to make him come. I pulled away to take him in my mouth again. I've never felt so compelled to suck a man’s dick before, to see this strong, devastatingly handsome young man come apart because of me.

Kenrya: I teased him, sucking hard on the tip and every time his hips lifted the tiniest bit, thrusting deeper into my mouth. I knew what he wanted, but I waited until he asked for it. "Please Soni," he begged. His hips rolled upward again. "Please…" I moaned and swallowed him down. Taking him in as deeply as I could until his cockhead hit the back of my throat. "Oh fuck Sonja," he moaned loudly. "Fuck." I looked up at him. He was gone, lost on the edge of bliss from what I was doing to him with my mouth. "Baby…baby I'm about to come." I hummed, closed my eyes and took him in deeper. "Oh fuck, you just gon…baby wait, no." He made a sound that was somewhere between a chuckle and a moan, tensed, and came, flooding my mouth and moaning my name. I swallowed him down, sucking and licking every drop from his dick until he started to twitch and jerk. He pulled me off of him and brought my lips to his.

Kenrya: "Why'd you do that?" he whispered, kissing me hard, that same hard hungry kiss he'd given me at the start. Could he taste himself on my tongue? "Why'd you do that? You didn't have to do that," he said, his voice full of gratitude. Was that reverence? "I know. I wanted to." "You're amazing, Jesus, Sonja." He kept kissing me. “It's been a long time since I've done anything like that or even wanted to.” I pulled away a little so I could look him in the eye. "Thank God you came when you did. I was two seconds away from crawling over this console." He shook his head. "This is a complete 180 from crying when I made you come in the greenhouse this morning." I shrugged and slid my hand under his shirt. “Maybe it's the come-to-me oil, but there's no denying that you bring it out of me.” Atlas sighed, "Same," he murmured, "So much same."

Kenrya: He covered my hand with his. "You laughed before you came," I said, remembering that moment. "Is that normal for you?" "I don't know, my attention's usually focused elsewhere." "No one's ever mentioned it before?" "No," his brow furrowed. "Is that your way of asking me how many girls I've been with?" he asked, smoothing his hand over my cheek. "No…I just thought it was cute and unusual." But now I was wondering. How many women had he been with? Who was the last woman he was with? Was she my age or much younger with a firmer ass and a belly without stretch marks? He stopped my self-deprecating thoughts with another kiss. "Maybe we'll talk about that next time, when you actually come upstairs and I actually get you in my bed." I shook my head. "I can't." "I know, you can't tonight. I just wanted to let you know that this changes nothing. I still want you, so don't go home and lay awake all night recounting every minute that we spent together today looking for the one thing that you did that might have turned me off. Only one of us needs to do that."

Kenrya: I rolled my eyes. "You did nothing wrong." "You mean except come in your mouth after you sucked my dick for three minutes?" "Was it only three minutes?" Atlas nodded and looked a little sheepish. "I glanced at the clock when you..." He rolled his eyes. "It was three minutes, maybe four, and now I'm humiliated. Excuse me while I tuck my flaccid dick back in my pants." "Atlas," I reached for his hand and laced my fingers into his. "It doesn't really matter how long you lasted, especially since I can still feel you so big and hard in the back of my throat." "Jesus, Sonja," he said for the third time this evening. He brought our joined hands to his mouth where he grazed his lips across my knuckles. The look he gave me made me squirm in my seat again. Maybe all of this dirty talk wasn't so silly.

Erica: Welcome back. That was an excerpt from “A Taste of Her Own Medicine,” by Tasha Harrison. So Killa, as I said, this touches very close to home.

Kenrya: Oh divorced bitches.

Erica: I know, okay before we jump into that let's get to the situation at hand. When this nigga said, "A guy that makes you abandon your responsibilities and make love all night"—bitch. It flashed back to those times where you meet a guy and everything is sweet and you're all going to have a night of fun and then two days later you emerge from his house like, "Oh shit."

Kenrya: The sun's so bright.

Erica: Exactly, your girlfriend's like, "Bitch, where you been?" That line touched a nerve in my little whore spirit. I was like, "Oh I remember that." We had a moment of appreciation for our good friend dry humping.

Kenrya: Was it dry humping?

Erica: Yeah I think it was. We said people gave up on dry humping.

Kenrya: Oh yeah before, and oh first season.

Erica: Yeah bitch, you was there.

Kenrya: Yeah, yeah, yeah with the woman who was with the older man.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah, yeah.

Erica: So bitch, our good friend a hand job. Here's the deal, my hand jobs suck.

Kenrya: Yeah I'm not great.

Erica: I feel like my hand jobs suck, but I feel like her hand job was really great. But I think that she probably thought about it and was like this wasn't a good hand job.

Kenrya: She didn't stay with the hands for long though.

Erica: Exactly.

Kenrya: She popped her mouth on down there right quick.

Erica: Yes, but one he was-

Kenrya: Which was also my experience.

Erica: Yeah exactly, you never do a hand job to completion, right?

Kenrya: Right. Well I'm sure people do. I don't think I have, but that's because I don't feel like it's so good. I have been told that I'm good at it.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: But it don't seem like it.

Erica: But it don't feel like it, it don't feel right.

Kenrya: Yeah, I think the problem is that you really got to use lube. Spit is not enough because it's just on your hands and it's not continuously coming like when it's in your mouth.

Erica: What? Continuously coming.

Kenrya: What she said.

Erica: Yeah, so I appreciated... The whole scene reeked of divorceness because don't you remember when you first start dating post-divorce it is a lot like... For me it was a lot like dating when you're first dating. You got to be home at a certain hour, curfew because you got to go relieve the sitter. Or you're all sitting out in the driveway, the next thing you know you're giving a hand job and head in the car.

Kenrya: That is a thing that has happened.

Erica: Right?

Kenrya: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way.

Erica: It definitely is return, it returns back to oh, we're doing this shit all over again. Nine times out of 10 if you're anything like me or Killa, you had a momma. My momma was Kenrya, after me, "Who you going out with? Tell me whereabouts. Drop a pin for your location." This book itself... Oh shit, we didn't give the background story of the book.

Kenrya: Oh what the...

Erica: Oh damn, we jumped all into it.

Kenrya: That's okay.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: We'll do that right quick. It stars Sonja and Atlas, who of course is aptly named because he has strong shoulders and he can bear the weight of the world on them.

Erica: Love me a shoulder.

Kenrya: I know, so Sonja has been divorced for about a year. She was married to this dude named Eric who we find out over time is a fucking asshole. She has two kids who are in high school and she has decided that she wants to start a business because she needs to support herself outside of the business that she worked on with her husband. She basically helped him build his business. The story starts with her going to an entrepreneurship class and her teacher is Atlas. When she meets him she loses her shit because he fine as hell.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: Yeah, and then it's clear that he also... From the very first moment they meet he's flirting with her and then it's all...

Erica: From the first moment.

Kenrya: Literally from the first moment, and then she wrestles with what it means to date as a divorced woman and as a mom.

Erica: Also she struggles a little bit with her age because she's a little bit older than him, right?

Kenrya: Yeah, she's 40 and he's 30 and she makes a huge deal out of it.

Erica: Huge deal out of it.

Kenrya: He's like, "I don't give a shit."

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah, but it's a big, big deal for her.

Erica: Okay, so that's how I got to the whole divorce and dating things. This nigga was wearing sweats.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: I love some sweats. Not only how they look but-

Kenrya: Because you can see everything.

Erica: They're easy access when you're doing nasty things. You can just slip a hand down there because there ain't nothing worse than having to have to lift his hips to unbutton some button down fly jeans.

Kenrya: Still, it's like their thot wear.

Erica: It is totally thot wear.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: It's a Fashion Nova.

Kenrya: It is nothing-

Erica: Of men's clothing.

Kenrya: Well they have Fashion Nova shit too now.

Erica: I know but it don't be hitting like a pair of gray sweatpants do.

Kenrya: It's true. It leaves nothing to the imagination.

Erica: Nothing to the imagination. Okay, so back to this divorced and dating thing. Do you have anything to say, anything else?

Kenrya: No.

Erica: Oh, I was going to ask if you had anything else to say about the sex itself. I love giving head, you love giving head, and this scene explains why good head is good head because it's not even I want to please you. It's like no, I need to have this in my mouth right now.

Kenrya: Yeah, it is and I think for folks who don't love it, that's the part that's missing is that they don't... For me it very much turns me on, that is foreplay for me.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: It's a part of me getting ready, and it seemed like that was also a part of her getting ready.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah, but then there's that other part that we've talked about on the show when she was like, "To see him lose himself, that abandon that comes with it." That's a huge part of it for me. I like the control aspect of all of that.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Tasha explained that really well.

Erica: Very well and it was so beautifully written. No, I need to taste this right now.

Kenrya: Right now.

Erica: And when he was saying I need to feel you on my body, I need to feel you touching me, oh man this man can talk some shit.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: He definitely has the gift of gab and I am just...

Kenrya: Won her over to that. The reason that we started and ended the excerpt where we did is because it starts with him talking shit. She's like, "I ain't never really... I always thought that shit was silly." Then by the end she like, "Well maybe, maybe this works."

Erica: I think it's well known here that I like to talk. I like the sex talk. I think I could probably be a phone sex operator, I love a good talk. Yeah, it's corny if I'm talking to you right now, but in the moment bitch it is delightful.

Kenrya: Yeah, you out here charming niggas out their pants.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative), be like come on. Lift up them hips. Pull them panties down.

Kenrya: Men hate it when you call them panties. I like to do it just to make them angry.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: It's funny to me.

Erica: Take them panties off. Take them panties off. Okay, so we're talking about dating after divorce. Kenrya what was your dating situation like after divorce? Walk us through it.

Kenrya: Messy. I went straight from divorce into a pseudo relationship with an old flame.

Erica: I think a lot of people do that though because it's easy.

Kenrya: I mean in my... Well it was easy and also you know the situation, this guy was somebody who I'd dated before, who we went to school with, and there was always this... He was my what if guy.

Erica: Reunited and it feels so good.

Kenrya: It was we had both gotten married, we'd both gotten divorced, or I was in the process of it and it was like, "Well shit, let's try it. Now that we're both actually available let's try again." Shit got messy, a lot of stuff happened.

Erica: Dot, dot, dot.

Kenrya: And it ultimately did not work out, but I thank God for that because it brought me to a better place. Then after that I was by myself for... I didn't start even trying to date for a year and a half, I was really focused on my own shit. Then one day I was like, "Huh, okay."

Erica: Was it self-imposed or was this a-

Kenrya: Yeah, I was like, "I don't want to be bothered."

Erica: Nigga you had a fast.

Kenrya: Oh no before that.

Erica: Oh okay.

Kenrya: No, no that was before that.

Erica: Sorry, I'm trying to-

Kenrya: You're trying to prompt me.

Erica: Yeah I'm trying to get you to have a-

Kenrya: No, no there was a year of me not being interested in not dating. I think it was a year, and then I decided to go on the apps. Got my ass on Bumble, started dating, it was not great. Catfished by dudes who posted pictures 15 years younger than they were. All kinds of shit. Jack hammer dick, lots of-

Erica: When was the fast?

Kenrya: I'm getting to the fast.

Erica: I think the fast was before that though.

Kenrya: It was not, no it was not.

Erica: Okay, sorry. Sorry you all, I'm really lonesome like girl. Okay, yeah.

Kenrya: I had a few months of Bumble dating that were not great, and then I went on a date with a guy and had a panic attack. Not on a date, but I got home... You don't remember this?

Erica: Uh-uh.

Kenrya: This was the nigga who we went out to eat and the roach was crawling on the table at the Senegalese spot.

Erica: Yeah mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: He brushed it off and kept eating and I was like, "Nigga you eating with your hands. What is happening?" Anyway, so went on a date with that dude, got home, it was a day off so we had done a lunch date and I said, "Oh, this will be cool. Do a little lunch date, come home, lay on my couch for the rest of the day." I had a fucking panic attack. That was what got me back into therapy. Actually that day I remember I called you and was like, "What's your therapist's name? I need some help." I realized later that it was the date that had sent me there. I found out later that I had PTSD from relationships with men and all of this stuff. One of the very first things that she made me do when I started therapy was go on a men fast.

Erica: The fast.

Kenrya: Exactly, I finally got there.

Erica: Sorry.

Kenrya: It was supposed to originally be for 30 days. Remember I had a date scheduled with somebody and she was like, "Well you can go on that date but you need to tell him on that date that you can't talk to him for a month." I wasn't allowed to flirt, to sext, to do anything really with any man because I date men. A month turned into three months.

Erica: Yeah as I say.

Kenrya: Which turned into six months, and then so at the end of the six months, after a whole bunch of work she said that I was ready and sober around the shit that made dating not great. Then I started. I got back on the apps and started dating again and it was a lot better because I was making way better choices. I didn't give niggas chances, honestly, is what it came down to. I had a set of criteria and really strong boundaries that I had built that allowed me to be able to better... It gave me a better picker basically.

Erica: Were you dating for relationships or dating for fun?

Kenrya: I was dating for relationship. I knew that I was ready after being done all of that work that I wanted to find someone that I actually wanted to build with. Yeah, so I was out there looking purposefully for somebody who I could see myself with.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: So we're here, this is called The Turn On. We talk about sex. We talk about the sex during this time.

Kenrya: There wasn't a lot of sex during that time because most... I was breaking it down to my partner. We were talking about how dating was as a woman on the apps. Let's say I talked to 10, I matched with 10 people. Maybe of those 10, maybe four of them would make it off the app to a phone call. Then of those four maybe two of them would make it to a date, and then I would go on a couple of dates with one of them. One of them would make it past the first date and then I'd go on several dates with another one and then we would end up fucking. Then either it would work out or it wouldn't. Wasn't a ton of sex, it's a funnel, a narrowing down of people before I got to the ones.

Kenrya: I didn't mean I waited a long time to have sex with the ones who made it through, but the quality was not there. Because I was dating with a purpose in terms of actually trying to find somebody who I actually liked beyond just fucking, hey dog, there wasn't a whole lot of sex, not that second time around. Yeah, what about you?

Erica: What about the first time around?

Kenrya: There was some bad sex and there was a couple instances of great sex and one nigga who... That was the second time around, who I've talked about before. I feel like he was probably really into domination but wasn't honest about it and up front about it, and so I felt that he was trying to hurt me in the course of having sex without us having had a conversation about it, which made things not cool.

Erica: Yeah, but even the dominant guys that I've dealt with it wasn't a... I've dealt with dominant men, not sadists.

Kenrya: Right and I think he was ultimately a sadist.

Erica: A sadist yeah.

Kenrya: Which is fine, but talk to me about it.

Erica: I don't mind a dominant man, I don't want a sadist yeah.

Kenrya: Right, but when I called him out on it that's when he ghosted me. But that's cool.

Erica: How was sex the first time with someone other than your husband?

Kenrya: Sorry, my eyes closed. It was amazing. It was so good because it was the what if guy, so we hadn't had sex in years before then so it was all this pent up energy, and because we'd had sex before, we both knew each other's bodies already. I still remembered what worked and he still remembered what worked too. It was fucking fantastic.

Erica: Good.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Good.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: All right, all right.

Kenrya: Tell us about your post-divorce situation.

Erica: Post-divorce I initially, well throughout my separation I reunited with an old flame. It was good, we had a good long weekend. We literally locked ourselves in a hotel room for a weekend and had some good nasty sex. That was great. Then once I actually said, "I want a divorce," I think I filed, no after I said, "I want a divorce," my therapist put me on a fast and mine was 60 days. Was it 60 or 90?

Kenrya: I think it was 90.

Erica: It was 90 days.

Kenrya: But it got longer because you ended up coming off after... Oh it just started way after mine.

Erica: Uh-uh, yeah.

Kenrya: But you finished after I did.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: It was a 90-day fast and I literally would... I flirt like I talk.

Kenrya: With everybody.

Erica: I flirt with everybody. I be on the phone with the Verizon tech and I'm flirting. It was really difficult, but it was good. It was good to clear my mind and my brain of boys. Sometimes I get boy crazy, and so it was good to not have that as something I'm thinking about as I'm trying to figure myself out. Once it was time to come off the fast, I definitely was planning a grand opening party, a remodeled and come in, take a look. First five people in with a coupon get in free kind of thing, but it didn't quite happen like that. It was like eh, okay this is... I can do it and I haven't found anybody to do it with.

Kenrya: We put you on Bumble.

Erica: No, uh-uh.

Kenrya: Yes we did.

Erica: That wasn't until December. I came off fasting August.

Kenrya: Oh right, it was January 1st.

Erica: Yeah, so I came off the fast and one of my girlfriends who always knows somebody who knows somebody introduced me to this guy that was traveling a lot and old man, served great dick, it was great. I traveled, meet him in a city, we have a good long weekend of nasty fucking and then we go on about our business. It was fun. I kept that situation up for a minute. Generally I was kind of... I knew that I didn't want to jump into a relationship, I was ready to-

Kenrya: I forgot about him.

Erica: Have some good sex. He still be-

Kenrya: Does he?

Erica: Niggas like to test-

Kenrya: Keep it open.

Erica: Keep the lines open. It's like in the winter when they tell you to keep a drain running so the pipes don't freeze?

Kenrya: Don't freeze.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative), he let it keep that drain open so the pipes don't freeze and that's fine. That's fine because I do the same thing. I definitely have my every three months. "Hey big head. Hey stranger," text that go out. It's whatever. After that I pretty much stuck around on that. For me dating had changed so much between the time that I was... Before I started dating and after I started dating.

Kenrya: Absolutely.

Erica: Dating and courtship had really changed.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: It was different and I had to wrap my mind around it. It took a lot for me to even want to put a profile up because you're like-

Kenrya: Yeah, because we didn't have that before we got married. People weren't-

Erica: People were but it wasn't like ads or anything, it was literally Yahoo dating.

Kenrya: Or Match and... Right.

Erica: It was go to the computer.

Kenrya: They didn't have these apps.

Erica: It was very, very different and so I think everyone was looking for... There was the illusion of we're looking for partners in life and it was now he's trying to fuck.

Kenrya: I was going to say these apps lend themselves more to sex.

Erica: Yeah, which whatever.

Kenrya: It's fine.

Erica: Right after Christmas I told myself that I'll be ready to get on the apps. New Year's Day I came to Killa's house and we setup my profile.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I'm very good at writing Bumble profiles.

Erica: Yeah, she is. Yeah, she setup my profile and I got on Bumble. That was the only thing I really was on. Matched with a few people, Kenrya gave me all the tips and tricks. I knew what to do well before. I didn't have to do the trial and error because Killa did it all for me. I did that, I met a few people. I met one guy who we would have been... Actually we're still really good friends, it just did not work because we had fundamentally very different views about life.

Kenrya: Some things.

Erica: Raising and children and all that. Also, I don't know if I want more kids, and so it's hard to... Well first the goal of it initially was to be fucking, but then I actually started liking the dude and I was like, "Oh this is a danger," so then I started... I went about it backwards because I was fucking him and I was like, "This is a good fuck buddy," but then I started catching feelings. I was like, "Oh wait," when I should have vetting for that before I started fucking him.

Kenrya: That way if things changed you would already know.

Erica: Then I'm still good.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, it was one of those ooh, this ain't going to work. I don't see this working down the line. We had to part ways. Yeah, so I've done the app stuff. I meet people. I mean again, I'm a big flirt so I meet people just in organic situations. Went on vacation, met somebody.

Kenrya: That was random.

Erica: Yeah, very random but it worked.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, so now I'm still dating. I mean I will have a week-long period where I'm like, "Oh, let me get back on this app." I'll get on the app and then be like, "Well there was a reason you haven't opened this app in three months."

Kenrya: Digging through the trash, digging through the trash.

Erica: I was digging through the trash for a hamburger that was easy to eat. I recently got back... Yeah recently got on the app and met somebody that's cool and that kind of thing, and I'm still not quite ready for a relationship I don't think. However, when I do look at fuck buddies I try to think of if they would... If I were to catch feelings is there anything barring, fucking up the situation from this being something? No I'm not going to have a fuck buddy that ain't doing shit with his life because if that dick's good and we got a good conversation and I'll be like-

Kenrya: Oh, I think I love he.

Erica: Exactly, so I try to avoid that kind of situation. Yeah, I don't think I'm quite ready for a relationship yet. I think it's primarily because I'm still trying to figure myself out. I mean I know what I want, I think I know what I want. I got a lot going on y'all. I guess I'll share with everybody now. Back in December I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Yeah.

Kenrya: That's a lot.

Erica: There's a lot happening.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: Wow, and I think I might actually cry and I haven't cried about this since I was diagnosed. I have surgery next week, so yeah that makes dating really weird. I mean not that it makes it weird because actually one thing I've learned is niggas don't give a shit about that.

Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:36:08].

Erica: This one nigga was like, "They ain't sewing up your pussy are they? They ain't doing a mastectomy of your ass." I'm like-

Kenrya: Oh God.

Erica: Gee thanks, niggas ain't shit. But at the same time you're about to undergo a very long process. Most of the guys that I'm dating, even the guy that I literally met two weeks ago is like, "You cool, I'm cool, let's see what happens." I'm lucky in that extent.

Kenrya: Yeah, nobody's like, "Holla at you later."

Erica: Yeah, and if you are cool.

Kenrya: Bye, yeah.

Erica: I completely understand it, but I think with all of that that's going on it's difficult for me to focus on building a relationship.

Kenrya: Yeah, that takes a lot of energy.

Erica: Yeah, so I mean I have people that I'm dating and maybe if they stick around that'll show... Maybe something will be revealed in the healing process and there. Maybe there's some grand gesture that I'm like, "I can't be without you." Yeah, so I don't think I'm quite ready for a man because right now I need to be my own partner and I need to be... From what I understand treatment and recovery is going to require an inordinate amount of selfishness on my part. It would be wrong to drag somebody brand new into this because it's going to be all about me. One of the things that's very difficult for me to accept right now is receiving the outpourings of help and love from everyone. I mean I know people love me, yada, yada, yada, but it's been very difficult having people... I literally had a girlfriend text and say, "Hey, I'll come over and help with laundry." I'm like, "Bitch, no." I think it's a wrong foot to start out on in a relationship for it to be all about me. I don't think that I'm going to be able to-

Kenrya: You also can't force people to do things, so it's not as if let's say with this person who you just met, if it turns into something and he's here just as things are getting tough you're not forcing anybody to do any fucking thing.

Erica: Yeah, but I just-

Kenrya: This nigga's got free will just like you do.

Erica: Yeah, I feel like relationships are supposed to be reciprocal. It's not a-

Kenrya: Whoa see we talked about equity versus reciprocity.

Erica: Yeah exactly, but I think... You're right, equitable and I don't think that there's any way that I can be an equitable... Well I guess I could if-

Kenrya: Ebbs and flows, boo, ebbs and flows.

Erica: Yeah, I just feel like going into this I have to make it all about Erica.

Kenrya: As you should, and either somebody deals with that or they don't, but you can't force them to do it.

Erica: Okay bitch. Fuck, anyway so-

Kenrya: You know me I'm like fuck that.

Erica: Yeah, so that's where I am with the dating thing. I'm still having really great sex. These titties have been on a world tour. Lord they have been on a world tour.

Kenrya: They deserve.

Erica: They deserve as do I deserve. Yeah, so it's been an interesting ride post-divorce. I think that I'm a very different dater now, and I mean what helps-

Kenrya: What makes you different?

Erica: My picker's better. I am comfortable saying what I want and what I don't want out of a relationship. I feel like once you've been, at least for me, I know what it feels like to be stuck in a relationship, well feel like you're stuck in a relationship where you're stuck and you're trying to live and be somebody you're not.

Kenrya: Who you aren't.

Erica: Who you aren't, and so I am going into all relationships with an ignorant level of transparency. I mean I don't tell everything on a first date, but I'm very clear about who I am and what I want and what I expect. If it's too much, if it scares you off, if it feels like it's too much of a problem-

Kenrya: Speak now.

Erica: That's fine because I'm not going to change or shrink or hide who I am and what I want for the sake of being with somebody because that shit is hard as fuck to maintain.

Kenrya: It's exhausting, and for what?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: So you can look up and not who the fuck you are?

Erica: Yeah, and I never understood the whole I can do bad by myself until I truly was like, "No, I can do this shit on my own." I'd rather struggle and be by myself and come home to peace.

Kenrya: Peace.

Erica: Come home to peace. Wasn't my word last year peace and prosperity?

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: Yeah, my word last year... Each year I pick a word, a few words for the theme of the year. Last year was peace and prosperity. I definitely found peace. Even thinking about all that happened. I think I told you this before. All that happened last year, I lost my granny who was my favorite girl in the whole wide world.

Kenrya: She was dope.

Erica: Yeah, I got fucking diagnosed with breast cancer. But 2019 was one of the best years of my life because I found peace, so even in the midst of all of this bullshit I found peace. I'm peaceful, I'm happy, I fucking launched my podcast, I have a better idea of who I want to be and what I want my empire to look like. Yeah, I don't have anybody and I'm fine with that. Maybe in 10, 15 years if I'm still like this that might change, but right now I have found peace and comfort in my own little situation, my own little setup. I don't want to add anybody to that that isn't enhancing it or making it easier. I know that relationships can be difficult, but I think the difficult part should be the logistics part of it. Logistics is probably the wrong word but the fitting two lives together, fitting two personalities together. We should genuinely like each other.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: We should genuinely want to spend our time together, that kind of thing. I think now that I'm better in my pillars, in the pillars of Erica and what she wants and who she is, now that that's more solid, the rest of it fills in the blanks and it works out. So yeah. You think you're different dating?

Kenrya: Oh fuck yeah. I was not healthy or sober when it came to dealing with men because my codependency was such that I put everyone before me. It meant that I put men before me, even ashy raggedy assed niggas that didn't deserve it. I was a let me take care of you, hoe. It's nothing wrong with taking care of the people who you care for, but not to the detriment of yourself. There was a whole lot of care taking and a whole lot of making myself small in order to make small men feel bigger. To the point where yeah, I didn't really know myself anymore.

Kenrya: I remember when I finally left and he would come talk at me to tell me why I should stay with him and I would literally look through this nigga and he went, "I don't even know you anymore." I'm like-

Erica: Yeah, yeah.

Kenrya: You didn't really know me to begin with. I am back to being myself. That has made me better post-that. I think one of the most important lessons that I learned and that made me better when it came to dating is the lesson that you can always leave.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Long before I left my ex-husband I wanted to leave. I had calls to leave, and I chose to stay because I thought that people deserved-

Erica: You thought you couldn't.

Kenrya: No, not even that. I had convinced myself that everybody deserves another chance and that may be true, but not on my back. But I didn't know that then.

Erica: I didn't say that I got to give you a second chance.

Kenrya: Exactly.

Erica: I wish you and your new girlfriend the best.

Kenrya: Exactly, but I stayed and then spent a whole bunch of time waiting for him to fuck up again so I could leave because I felt like I had made the choice to stay with a nigga who cheated on me.

Erica: Oh I didn't know that, but yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: Yeah, literally I'd be like, "Just let me catch you."

Erica: Let me catch you yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative). It's like where is this rule coming from?

Kenrya: Right, some shit that I had imposed when I literally could have woke up one day and be like, "You know what? Fuck you and fuck this." When I got to the point where I realized I could always leave, that changed literally everything because not just in relationships, any kind of a bad situation. Even I have anxiety and going to new places fucks me up. We were just talking about this when I was going somewhere when we were out of town and I had to remind myself that if I didn't like it I could turn around and I could leave.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: It had been so ingrained in me and I think in a lot of Black women that you have to try, you have to give somebody another chance, it's up to you to keep things going and make him happy and blah, blah the fuck blah. It made it easier when I started dating because if I didn't like some shit a nigga said on the phone I would get off, I would send him a text that says, "We're not a good fit. I wish you well." That's what I would always text niggas and then I would block them because I don't owe you an explanation and I would move on with my day and with the rest of my life. It made it so much easier for me to put myself out there because I realized I didn't have to stay anywhere I didn't want to be.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: One of the things that I do, so my little codependent self, part of it is codependency but part of it is this is who I am. I'm a little old Black lady, I turn into a granny when my friends come over because I want to make sure they ate, I want to feed them, I want to cook for them. When I started dating one of the things, one of the rules I gave myself was no cooking for these niggas.

Kenrya: Right.

Erica: No cooking for them until they earn being cooked for. Did you have any rules like that?

Kenrya: I never let anybody in my house, that was a rule that my therapist and I actually set up rules for how to keep me sober with dating. People had to prove that they were worthy of coming to my home. I also did almost exclusively daytime dates because they had to prove that they were worthy of me getting a sitter and being away from my child.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: I would meet folks on my lunch break. That made it easier for me again that I can always leave, there's a set amount of time attached to something, I'm not letting anyone into my own space, they weren't in my vehicle, they weren't... Know where I lived. It made me feel safer in that way. In that respect I didn't cook for anybody. You know I like to bake for niggas and everybody, but they would have to earn the baking and all of that shit. Yeah, I think those are probably the biggest ones. Daytime was really important to me. I didn't want to give anybody the privilege of having my very precious nighttime hours. I think the only person who I went on a first date in the evening with is the person who is now my current partner.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: That's it.

Erica: You didn't have a kid that weekend so it wasn't a-

Kenrya: I did not. It wasn't a me and hardship, it was literally we had been planning a date for the following week during the day and then her dad actually got her and I didn't have anything to do and I was like hey.

Erica: Yeah, let's meet up.

Kenrya: Then it went from there.

Erica: Yeah, that dating as a mom thing is a whole other beast.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: I'm really lucky because my ex and I have... We have a really decent schedule.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative), you all do.

Erica: It allows me to have a lot of flexibility, and because I have such flexibility I try to not date on the days that I have him. I do break it occasionally for-

Kenrya: There's a concert of something has a specific.

Erica: Yeah, something like that, but I try to keep our time our time. Babysitters aren't cheap.

Kenrya: Uh-uh.

Erica: Then also you think about coming home and then having to parent post-date fucking sucks.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: It was like we'll do it on the weekend I don't have my kid.

Kenrya: Yeah, I would rather not.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, okay do you have any other old habits that... I mean we talked about the things we do, but are there any old habits that you had that you look back now and you're like, "Oh my God."

Kenrya: I do have a big one. I remember back when I was... I got married before most of our friends. I got married at 26. I was super young and married and had all these ideas about what it took in order to make some shit work that now I'm like, "Bitch, shut up." One of the things was that I would never say no if he wanted to have sex.

Erica: Oh I remember that conversation. I was like bitch, don't tell my husband.

Kenrya: It led to me doing a lot of shit I didn't really want to do.

Erica: Resent.

Kenrya: And resenting.

Erica: Resenting him and resenting yourself.

Kenrya: Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: Why the fuck am I here?

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and it still wasn't satisfying to him because he still ultimately-

Erica: It still wasn't enough.

Kenrya: Yeah, he still wanted to have more sex then we were having even though we were having it constantly and he was still cheating. That's always that reminder that cheating is not about you. Although I just always remind myself the nigga cheated on Beyoncé, so the nigga cheated on Beyoncé and she don't need anybody. I contorted myself in that way, and toward the end, maybe the last year that I was married I finally was like, "Fuck you. If I don't want to have sex I'm not having sex. It's not fun for me, it's not going to be fun for you because I'm not into it so no."

Erica: You know, we all hit that. We all hit a point.

Kenrya: A wall.

Erica: Looking back there's a moment in our marriage where it's over.

Kenrya: It's over before you know it's over.

Erica: Yeah, it's over before you know it's over and I remember my point was where I was like, "Okay, well you're going to live that way. I'm going to live this way."

Kenrya: I knew your shit was over a smooth year before.

Erica: Yeah, exactly. That was when I was like, "Okay, you do..." I was like this is how I'm going to feel comfortable being in this marriage for the rest of my life. You live your way, you do what you want to do, and then I'm going to live my way and do what I want to do and should we overlap from time to time.

Kenrya: Then bonus.

Erica: Then great. It's like how the fuck is that a marriage? A marriage, a forever partnership? Yeah, I definitely thought this was my way of reconciling this decision I made. I was going to say fucked up decision.

Kenrya: No, don't say that.

Erica: This decision I made that ended sourly.

Kenrya: Yeah, and so one of the things that has come up for me now, as a person in a really healthy relationship, is that I sometimes catch myself feeling like I need to have sex when I don't necessarily feel like it. Because I was so used to being with a man who literally I found was counting how many times we had sex, if I could tell we were going to have a bad day because he would ignore me in the morning... He was a narcissist, they are manipulative. But it would be because he felt like we hadn't had sex the night before and so he would pout and act like a child the next day.

Erica: You know that pouting shit, I cannot stand a passive aggressive person.

Kenrya: Yes, you know that's one of my biggest pet peeves in the world.

Erica: It's making my teeth itch. It makes my teeth itch. It's crazy because I was dating this guy and he was passive aggressive as fuck and would... I'm like, "Yo, is there a problem? We good?" "No we fine." Then he pissy-

Kenrya: Why you acting like a little pissy bitch?

Erica: Then I got to ask again like, "We good?" "Well I was really upset about..." You know what? We did that shit.

Kenrya: I can't read your mind.

Erica: We did that shit twice and I was pissed that we even got to it twice because I don't... We're adults. Let's be adults, let's be 100 about it. There shouldn't be anything that I do... I shouldn't do something and you be... If you can't fucking tell me, "Yo, you hurt my feelings or I'm feeling a certain kind of way," or "Hey it would have been nice if I got some head." You probably won't get any, but nonetheless-

Kenrya: Say something.

Erica: We should be able to say something to one another.

Kenrya: With your chest.

Erica: If we can't then why are we together?

Kenrya: Exactly.

Erica: You literally had your face in my booty hole, your whole tongue was in my booty hole, but you can't tell me you pissed about something? It was like, "You know what bro, I'm good. I'm good love, enjoy." Looking back I was pissed at myself that I even allowed it to get that far because I should have seen that pouty passive aggressive shit. I can't stand a pouty nigga.

Kenrya: We see the flags and we see them. I mean I think that that's one of the things for sure that I know that makes me a better dater now is that I see them flags and I don't just see them, I heed them. Because it used to be, after I was married then I could see them, but I would tuck them away and not do shit about them, or I might even say something but there was no intent. It was so he could talk me out of the flag. You know what I mean?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Now I'm like, "Nigga this is a problem. Either this changes or that changes or I go," kind of a deal.

Erica: Yeah, and it's not even on some angry shit.

Kenrya: No.

Erica: If I tell you this is a problem and you're like, "No, but I really like this." Okay that's great and I wish you the best. Like the dude that I was talking about, we're great friends now. We talk regularly, we keep in touch, we do stuff together, but it's because look, you ain't for me, I ain't for you but we're cool so let's-

Kenrya: You're able to be honest about that.

Erica: Yeah, let's be honest about it. Yeah, I mean I definitely feel like when I first divorced I was on this I'm going to forever be the fast auntie, auntie Erica will never be married. Then I sat down with a group of women, most of which were on their second marriage and they were talking about how great it is because they were better at defining what they want and saying what they want and saying this isn't what I want. More in tune with themselves and they were saying how great their second marriage is and the people that they're married to are. I think because they did the work and I mean this was a small group of women. I know women on their third and fourth marriage, so obviously didn't catch. I think now I am more open to the idea of a second marriage but it's got to be damn near perfect. I mean I know perfection don't exist, I know that there's... It's work but there are certain things-

Kenrya: The conditions have to be right.

Erica: Yeah, the conditions have to be right.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: On that note, I think that wraps us up.

Kenrya: Okay. Thank you all for joining us.

Erica: Thanks for joining us. This is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes making it clap.

[theme music]

Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.

Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.

Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.

Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.

Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla

TRANSCRIPTS

Season 5 | Double Dippin' | S2, E6 | I Will Survive

Season 5 | Double Dippin' | S2, E4 | Second Time Around

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