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SHOW NOTES
In Episode 3.5 of The Turn On, we interview Carol Taylor, editor of "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires," and take a deep dive into the origin story of the groundbreaking "Brown Sugar" series.

Resources:

• Book, "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires": Amazon
• Book, "Wanderlust: Erotic Travel Tales":  Amazon
• Editor, Carol Taylor: Website | Twitter | Facebook

​​
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information.

TRANSCRIPT

Kenrya: Come here, get off.

Kenrya: Today we're blessed to talk to Carol Taylor, the creator of the "Brown Sugar" series, which is where we first ran loose at. A former Random House book editor, Carol is a 25-year publishing veteran who has worked as an editor, coauthor, book doctor, and ghost writer with literary and commercial writers, noted academics, public figures and celebrities. The award-winning author has given us 10 books, including the 2010 novel, The "Ex Chronicles," and the bestselling "Brown Sugar" series. Carol heads up editorial strategy and conceptual development as the editorial director at McKinnon Literary Agency, teaches in the public certificate program at City College, and has taught creative writing at New York University. Carol, thanks for joining this.

Carol: Thanks so much for having me. This is a real pleasure and an honor.

Kenrya: Yay. We feel the same way.

Carol: Thank you.

Kenrya: Before we dive in, what are your preferred pronouns?

Carol: She, her, Carol, Brown Sugar. Always happy with Brown Sugar, which I do sometimes get.

Erica: I love it. We read your bio and it's dope. You do amazing things, but we would love it if you could sum up what you do in one sentence.

Carol: I work with words in every incarnation, from editing to writing to ghost writing. I help people put their thoughts and ideas on the page in a way that helps them and others.

Erica: Wow. That even sounded beautiful.

Kenrya: Right? We're talking in paragraphs out here.

Erica: Take us back to a little baby Carol. What did you want to be when you grow up, when you were growing up?

Carol: I was born in Jamaica, so for me, the whole idea of writing books was just not something I was thinking about. We were thinking about getting out of Jamaica quite honestly. We left Jamaica and came here to the US, and then I found that I could disappear into books. I'm the youngest of four, but I was the one who was always under the bed reading a book with a flashlight. I found these worlds in books, but you don't know where books come from. I thought they came from the bookstore because that's where I got them. I always wanted to be a part of that process. I didn't know if it was writing them. I journaled, but I didn't equate that with being a writer, although that's a start. I assumed, okay, books come from the bookstore. I'll go and I'll work at a bookstore. I did that and very quickly found out that I am not a retail person. Man, that's when I found out I am not a retail person. It's a whole different world.

It occurred to me that, oh, books come from publishing houses and editors get to make those books. That's when I decided, this is way back in the day. God, I'm going to date myself ... when we still had to know how to type. I had to learn how to type 90 words a minute and I decided, okay, I want to get a job in a publishing house. I went to an agency in my little cheap polyester suit, 90 degrees out. I'm burning up and sweating every day with my little briefcase, nothing in it. I learned to type. By the end of that summer, I was sent for a job at Anchor Books. This was before they were a part of Random House when it was still just Random House and not a part of PRH.

I went for a job there in the editorial department and, unfortunately, I did not get that job, but I impressed the human resources person so much because I was nice in the elevator that when she got a job at Random House, she asked to see me. That's how I actually got a job as an editorial assistant at Random House, which was my preferred house. That's karma. That's how I became a book editor. No one tells you about the process of making publishing, producing, acquiring books unless you're actually in the book world. It was a real education for me.

Right now, I work at the publishing certificate program at City College, and it is a program that introduces students to the book publishing world, and it's taught by industry veterans. This is a program I wish I had 20 years ago, 25 years ago when I started.

Kenrya: That's interesting because one thing that I noticed is you didn't say I went to college and studied English or I studied journalism. It was really that you decided you were going to do it and the thing that you felt that you had to learn with typing. At that point, were you ever made to feel as if that was something that was a necessary part of the journey to becoming a books editor or was it never really an issue?

Carol: No, it was never explained. I never could conceive of ... We didn't know what that was. Ask a kid in college what a book editor is. They won't know what that is. We have no concept of it. I'm being really serious.

Kenrya: No, it's true.

Carol: What is it? Where do books come from? What happens in book publishing? We teach whole courses on this to adults who are writers because we really don't know the process. I'm a writer too, and the fact that I can write 10 books, a book a year is only because I was a book editor. I know the process. I know how it works. No. I went to school. I graduated. I was a literature major, creative writing minor, and I had no clue that I was going to work in publishing or be a book editor. I like books. This is interesting. I'm terrible at math. Economics, that's not happening. I wanted to ... I love literature. This was interesting to me.

No, I never connected any of those dots, never knew the questions to ask. Of course, I had a guidance counselor. It never occurred to me to ask them, so how can I work with books? I was like, oh, I'm content to read them. I had no idea of what I would do with that knowledge until ... I don't even remember how I figured out that I should be a book editor. I think I was reading something about the book world and it said book publishers and then I just did my research from there.

Kenrya: Wow. Now, you are.

Carol: Exactly.

Kenrya: Where you are is that you really created a genre that didn't, not in a really substantial way, at least to me, exist before. We started this podcast, The Turn On, because we want to explore erotica that centers Black women and femmes and really anybody that doesn't identify as a man and Black bodies and Black sex. I'm wondering what pushed you to curate and create this series. What's the origin story of "Brown Sugar?"

Carol: Well, on my home planet Krypton ... I loved the origin story. I loved the way you phrased that. It's an interesting story and it comes from publishing. When I was an editor at Random House, I did a lot of books that had to deal with the Black world. For me, that's my interest. I'm interested in immigrant stories, Black stories, brown stories because I don't center white culture. For me, Black culture is the center. Although I acquired, which means I bought books, not all editors acquire books, some acquire them and edit them. I bought books, acquired books, fiction, nonfiction, self-help, pop culture, for color books, lifestyle books, all under the umbrella of multiculturalism because that's my interest.

When I was at Random House, that was a huge house even before it merged with Penguin. There were about, I don't know, five editors of color. I did a lot of the books of color that were published, not only by the imprint that I worked at Random House but the other imprints as well. I was a reader for a lot of those books. You would call them now sensitivity readers, but I was reading books that they wanted to know if the Black market would be interested in them. In one of those meetings, I ended up actually publishing a lot of books by Essence editors. One of those books dealt with Black love. After I left Random House, because the culture had become very corporate and editors were doing far fewer actual editing of manuscripts than going to meetings and marketing, and it really wasn't what I had signed up for.

So when I left Random House, I acquired one last book from Essence on love, and I had done a lot of research from one of their editors to acquire it. I got a call from an editor who said, "Do you think that there is a market for a book about Black erotica?" I was like, "Who are you talking to? What do you think? You're a Black lady. What's happening here?" I was like, of course there is an audience for a book about Black love, Black sex, Black relationships, erotica because we are seen by white America as being monolithic, but within the Black world, we have so many diverse stories. Just the three of us are so different, and yet we're all three Black women. Of course, I knew there was a market and of course I had a lot of information from the research. She was like, "Okay, you're an editor. Put together a proposal."

I put together a proposal, and I called up an agent, and I said, "So and so wants to see this. Will you send it out?" She sent it out and the book was bought. It's an erotic anthology of Black fiction. Imagine back in '99, this whole concept is high concept, a collection of erotic-like fiction written by people of color for people of color, gay, straight, what have you. This is high concept. To me, I'm like this is Saturday night. This isn't high concept. This is just real talk. I was blessed to actually have them. This was Penguin. Plume did the first Brown Sugar. Put together a gorgeous package with a beautiful woman on the front, so tastefully done. I had amazing writers as you know.

We put together a really rich collection of stories that really told the tale of love in diverse communities, in many different voices. I had poets. I had novelists. I had nonfiction writers. It was just so raw and real that I think the first week it was published, it hit the LA Times bestseller list at number two. They were astonished. They had to just keep rolling out and rolling out books. They sent me on a 10-city book tour because of it.

Kenrya: Get out of here.

Carol: Get out of here. We created a genre with this package. I'm a book editor, so we created a package that I knew would suit the market. For me, that was a small format, trade paperback at a particular price point that looked a particular way, and it worked. You saw so many other different, I mean in addition to the three others that we did, there's Brown Sugar two, three and four. There were so many other erotic Black anthology collections that popped up. Some did well. Some did not. This is really the benchmark, I think, for these types of collections. I was thrilled they weren't competing with me. I was happy, very happy to see them.

Kenrya: You said that this is just what you do, but can you dig a little deeper and tell us why you think it's important to tell these stories and what draws you to this type of work?

Carol: Here's the thing. For me, erotic Black fiction was a way to encapsulate what it was as a category, but really these are stories about us, stories that were not being told in this way, in this voice, in this style. It's important to me as a Black woman to be able to talk about sex, sexuality, feelings and emotions around that and communicate that in a way that allows me to feel empowered and to tell my story and to let others do it. Black people and people of color were being depicted only as one dimensional, in one way. Women were like this, and men were like that. That is really not the full kaleidoscope or mosaic of our lives. In these different stories, we're showcasing those different worlds in really interesting ways.

For me, it's a reclaiming of my sexuality as a woman and being able to talk about it. There's nothing wrong with talking about sex. We're all having sex. We may as well talk about it. There's a way to write about sex in a way that is sexy as opposed to being "pornographic." I think Isabel Allende said erotica uses a feather and pornography uses the whole chicken. That's true. There are different layers to erotic writing. When you are able to convey those different layers in a really nuanced way, you can write something that is incredibly sexy, sexual and erotic without one sex scene. There's not a lot of sex in these books, but that's the funny part. There's not a lot of sex happening on the page. It's really erotic, sexual, sensual couplings between people.

Kenrya: Wow. You talked a little bit earlier about how you've acquired and edited books across several genres. Did you ever, and it sounds like no, but did you ever struggle with the decision to include erotica in your portfolio?

Carol: That's an interesting question. It really is because I think of all those nuances I just talked about. Here's the thing. Brown Sugar has made me a Times bestselling author. I've had a fantastic career behind it. These are books that I'm really, really, really proud of. My very first book was a collection of the best Black essays, the best 100 Black essays. That's my first book, Sacred Fire. I was writing nonfiction essays. I don't have any misconceptions or misperceptions about who I am or what I write or any of that. I was hoping to demystify the idea of a Black woman who is, I hope, sexy and certainly sexual writing about sex and intimacy. There's as much intimacy in these collections as there is sex, probably more, not a whole lot of sex actually in these.

I've published people like, gosh, I've published nearly every Black writer in these four collections plus Wanderlust literally. Edwidge Dandicat, Tananarive Due, literally almost everyone who has come up.

Kenrya: Folks that we don't necessarily associate with erotica.

Carol: With erotica. Because erotica is not what people think it is, erotica is not necessarily sex. Erotica is the eroticism around the act itself. The act doesn't even have to be there. Erotica is almost the buildup to it. Erotica has gotten a bad rap in many ways. It's really the art of writing about intimacy and emotion and maybe there's sex involved. It's almost all of that buildup to it without the sex on the page. I could probably count on one hand, maybe with three fingers, all the books in all four of the series that actually have the act of sex in them. Most of these don't.

To answer your question, my website is called Brown Sugar books. My company is called Brown Sugar Limited. Brown Sugar means so much to Black folks. I got Brown Sugar from D'Angelo. Brown Sugar is a saying that we have. It's an emotion. It's a way that we are. It's a feeling. When you walk down the street and someone calls you Brown Sugar, you know what that means. For me, there wasn't really any shame because, one, I'm kind of shameless in the best possible way. I am without shame. It's hard for people to shame you when you are without shame because you stand on your truth. I look at this collection, and they have defined a generation of writers. You look at the writers I've worked with, and every one of them is working in the industry right now.

Zane. When I worked with Zane, Zane wasn't edited. First she couldn't find a publisher and then her book sold so well that she was then pretty much packaged by her publisher now. She's not really edited. When I worked with Zane, it was the first time she had worked with an editor, and her story and Brown Sugar is very different from what you will find in things for self-published books and some of her books now.

There's a difference to working with a book editor, to be honest. Again, not at all ... On my website, you'll see all my books. Also, I'm a ghost writer. I write for a lot of other people, and they can go and see all the books that I've written. If someone would rather not work with me because I can work in a particular genre very well, then that's probably not someone I should work with.

Kenrya: Yes, that's fantastic. I think it's heartening at least for me to hear. I think when we first started talking about doing this podcast, I had a little bit of hesitation because it can be seen as a deviation from the work that I typically do. It really came down to, what you were just talking about, it's a part of a whole, and it is a way that you bring your whole self to the table when you do this work alongside all the other work that you do. Making that conscious decision to not shame yourself and not let anyone else bring shame into the equation is pretty powerful, I think.

Carol: I agree. It's part and parcel with who we are as women, as mothers, as sisters, as daughters, as wives. It's this emotionality, the sexuality, the sexual part of who we are is part of who we are. As writers, we have to be able to explore that as people. We have to be able to explore that and have conversations around it. That is actually what intimacy is. Quite often, that's what's missing from the sexual equation. I'd rather we bring more of that in than anything else, then everything else would be better.

I agree with you. Sometimes you do have to think a little bit about it, but honestly, it depends on what you're doing and how you're doing it and who you are. That's what informs your work.

Kenrya: Speaking of shameless, when we first met in person, I told you that I had Brown Sugar in my special pile in my room.

Carol: I remember.

Kenrya: How does it make you feel that your work is with people in some super intimate times?

Carol: I love it. I love it. It's been almost 20 years and I went on a 10-city book tour. This book speaks to 18-year-olds and 55 and up. I had women of every generation talking to me in a real way, and they would clutch my hair and say thank you. That's how I do know. Auntie and grandma, like thank you, for just talking about real relationships between Black people just told in different ways. We were so tired of these flat one dimensional characters and women only looking in a particular way and men only acting in a particular way. We know that's just not the truth. I feel at this point ... I got over it my first few readings and signings. Of course, you judge the crowd. They're going to be different in Atlanta than they will be in Houston or Dallas. You judge the crowd. I know what I'm going to read and I know what I'm going to talk about.

Inevitably, at the end, it becomes a discussion about relationships between men and women. That's exactly what I wanted it to be. That's very, very exciting for me, but that's what it's really about. Communication, talking about things that we don't talk about and didn't talk about or was only talked about in one way.

Erica: Let's just dive a little deeper and talk about the story that we're reading for this episode, Luzette. Why did you choose to include that story in the collection?

Carol: I think that I included that story in the collection more because I loved the writer, to be honest. I chose my writers and then they sent in the stories, to be honest. It just really resonated with me in a way that it was something I had not read before and really felt the voice was wonderful, the characterization was amazing. I hadn't seen anything like it before, and it was very exciting to me. Really that's what I did with all of my writers and their stories. Some names you will know and some names you will not know, but they brought something to the table that I had not seen, and that's what I saw in Luzette.

Erica: Cool. This story is a little different from some of the other stories that we typically read for the show. This one is written from a male porn star's point of view, but we were really interested in Luzette and her being a boss who just took what she wanted. Tell me a little bit. Do you relate to her, and can you tell me about maybe a time where you had to have something or someone and just went for it?

Carol: I think that's like all my life. It's all my life, quite honestly. I am the trifecta. I'm a Black immigrant woman. It's the trifecta. Leaving a place ... When I was in Jamaica, it was a third world country and there was curfew. There were militia. It was a place where you wanted to leave. Jamaica is beautiful. Please go. It's gorgeous. Back when I was a young girl there, it was a very different place. When you actually get out of a place and get somewhere else that you really want to be and you travel in a plane at five years old and you end up in a whole different country in a whole different place and then you have these struggles with language, with identity, with culture. I was Jamaican before it was cool to be Jamaican, and there were all of these dynamics between American Blacks and West Indian Blacks that is I don't think it's as bad as it used to be, but it was certainly there.

Ending up going to a school that was very white, I went to South Hampton College on Long Island, very white, and working in corporate America, which is also very white. I have always had to push myself in a way where not getting to where I wanted to be was simply not an option. I would get there by any means necessary. That's not this huge dynamic thing. It's really just keeping it going, like going and getting a typing test all summer and being able to get that other job because I didn't get that other job. Just keeping it moving. We're Black women. We know.

Kenrya: That's what we do.

Carol: We figure it out. We'll get it done. That's always been my MO. Whether it is a relationship, a job, an apartment, a situation, whatever that is, you just keep it moving and you get it done. Perhaps that's a part of my immigrant background, where things look really bleak but you just keep it moving. I have taken that background with me wherever I go. You just get it done.

Kenrya: It's actually one of my favorite things about you.

Carol: I do know if I can't get it done this way, I'll get it done that way.

Erica: A very important quality to have in an editor.

Carol: When you're a Black woman, absolutely. I like surprising people. I've learned there ... I seem really laid back, but I am a very strategic person. I read about strategy. I practice strategy. It is very interesting to me. I know all about Machiavelli. I know all about the makings of the court. It is really intriguing to me on many levels to see how people operate. I've read the 48 laws of power 48 times. This is a part of my character that I don't think people know a lot about, but I'm always working behind the scenes, getting things done. I love having a sense of purpose, and I love figuring out creative ways to get things done. As an editor, you have 50 different jobs all at the same time. It's good to know how to work and how you work best. Yeah, it keeps me creative and allows me to do what I love, as I said, in many different ways, in many different incarnations. It's exciting to me.

Kenrya: The story of Luzette is based in an optometrist's office. Our final question for you is what's the most unexpected place you've had sex?

Carol: Oh. You know I'm a Scorpio, right? I'm a Scorpio.

Erica: No such thing as an unexpected place for a Scorpio.

Carol: We are faithful. We are kind. We are the best friends you could ever possibly have.

Kenrya: That's true.

Carol: We've got you. Just don't fuck with us.

Erica: My mother is a Scorpio. I know that.

Carol: We got your back. Still waters run deep. Okay? We're cool, but I got my shank so I will shank you if you deserve it. If not, I will give you the shirt off my back. We get a bad rap. Yes, we're very sexual, but we can go without sex for a really, really long time because sex is important to us. I don't want to waste it. I've gone for two years without sex. I'm a Scorpio. I've gone for two years without sex. I nearly killed a man I got with. My point is I don't want to squander it. I would rather have no sex than bad sex. I'm not gonna lie to you. I have other things I can be doing.

Kenrya: You can be doing it yourself. Let's be honest.

Carol: Let's a lot of other things to do. Exactly. I can do it myself. The strangest place I have ever had sex. I really have to think about that because I'm not really prudish about sex. I started out that way. We were colonized so we have a lot of these British influences that I grew up with my parents. My mom was a prude, and I grew up with this idea that you don't have sex until you're married. Sex is not fun. Sex is a chore. You do it to get it over with. You do it to have kids. I came into it with all of these negative stereotypes. I was a virgin in college. Luckily, I started at 15 so I want to get that out. Yeah, I started at 15, thank God. I was a virgin when I got to college, but I wanted to experiment. I was like, what is all this sex stuff? I had no idea. Nobody talked to me about it. I didn't know anything about it.

I've had sex in a number of different locations. However, I have not actually had a lot of partners. I was that girl who was in a 10-year relationship three times.

Kenrya: Same. With niggas that didn't deserve.

Carol: For real. In the back of trucks. I went to South Hampton so we would drive out on to the beach and the back of a truck, at the top of the Statue of Liberty.

Erica: Wow.

Carol: That's when we had to walk all the way up. That was something we wanted to try. On the pier at Red Hook. That was cool. I like water, so I've got a water thing. I am a water sign. During a birthday shower. Was it a wedding? A baby shower, during a baby shower, we were in the closet. We did that. For me, it's not really like I'm thinking about the place.

Kenrya: It's just what you want to do.

Carol: It's either a plan or the moment hit and we're like, where are we going? I can't really think of a place that was-

Kenrya: Those are great places.

Carol: To me, that's normal. The strangest place might be my bed. I've got so many other places to go and so many other things to do. For me, sex is about being comfortable, being intimate, experimenting, having fun. There's nothing sexier than having fun in bed. That makes all the difference.

Kenrya: That's dope. Thank you so much for joining us. That was our last question.

Carol: Thank you for having me.

Kenrya: Where can people find you and your work?

Carol: My website, brownsugarbooks.com, you can find all of my work there. You can also find me on Facebook as well. I post about writing. I post about editing. I'm always happy to chat about any type of book ideas. Please take a look at my website, and I hope you are continuing to read the Brown Sugar series. They're still out there and doing really well.

Kenrya: We have all four.

Carol: Don't forget "Wanderlust," which is about travel. These are erotic travel tales, "Wanderlust."

Kenrya: I might end up going somewhere from there too, just be forewarned.

Carol: Yeah, travel. That's a good one.

Kenrya: Your own Twitter @CarolATaylor117, right? I said two, as in also. That's my bad. Thank you.

Carol: That's my 117. Thank you, guys. I really think this is wonderful what you're doing. It's sad that we feel like we have to have a separate space or a safe space to be able to talk openly about sex and sexuality. That to me is just a part of hegemony. We need to be able to talk about anything that we want to talk about, especially something as intimate as sex.

Kenrya: Unfortunately, that's not there. Like you created it, we're trying to carry that on.

Carol: Keep it going. Absolutely. You are. Thank you guys very much for this. I do appreciate it. Keep fighting the good fight and doing the good work.

Erica: Thank you.

Kenrya: Thank you.

Carol: Thank you.

Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five-star review posted on Apple podcasts between now and July 31st, 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books we read on the show. We're giving away five books. Just post your review and email a screenshot to [email protected] to enter. Please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. Follow us on Twitter @theturnonpod and Instagram @theturnonpodcast and find links to books, transcripts, guest info and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Holla.

LISTEN TO THE TURN ON
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SHOW NOTES
In Episode 3 of The Turn On, we read "Luzette” by Darrell Dawsey, which appears in Carol Taylor's "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires." Then we reminisce about all the moments when we had no choice but to give into our own secret desires, location be damned.

Resources:

• Book, "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires": Amazon
  
• Editor, Carol Taylor: Website | Twitter | Facebook

​​
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information.

TRANSCRIPT

Kenrya: Come here, get off.

Erica: Welcome to The Turn On Podcast with your hosts Erica and Kenrya. This week we're reading from "Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires," which was published in 2005. The short story we are reading is "Luzette," by writer Darrell Dawsey. We picked this one because it portrays a strong woman taking exactly what she wants. So, get yourself together, sit back, and enjoy.

Kenrya: Luzette, by Darrell Dawsey.

She was a sexy Latina with a mane of dark hair, eyes flashing like embers, 100 watt smile, body by StairMaster. Afro-Cuban, I guessed. She was a new assistant in my eye doctor's office. A welcome relief from the overweight assistant and the pimple faced receptionist who usually greeted me. From the moment I walked through the door I noticed her. All short, and compact, and fine, her lab coat fighting a losing battle to conceal her voluptuous frame. I tossed her a friendly nod, gave that gorgeous body a quick once over, and began moving slowly around the office.

I was feeling her, but I wasn't going to sweat her. It turned out I wouldn't have to. Her eyes never left me. Everywhere I walked in that office, from the front door to the glass display case, her stare was in hot pursuit. Occasionally, I shoot her a glance just to let her know a brother knew what was up, then look away. I didn't want her feeling too self-conscious. The way I figured is, she'd probably seen me in a movie, but was too shy to say anything. I get that a lot. Women will recognize me, but pretend not to because they don't want anyone to know that they watch that kind of stuff. Instead, they usually just stare.

Flattered, I held back a smile and turned my attention to a pair of Gucci frames resting in the plexiglass display case. Then I settled down a chair, filled out some paper work, and waited for them to call me to the counter for my checkup. The whole time I could feel her smokey eyes burning through my clothes. At one point during my visit she walked over, touched my arm, and asked if everything was okay. I grinned and nodded, then watched her as she turned her attention to adding new frames to the display case. And the second her eyes had met mine, I knew that my initial hunch was right.

The sense of familiarity was palpable. She recognized me, cool as she was, for a brief moment she had registered the look. Everyone in my line of work gets the look if they stay in it long enough. The look is a mixed bag of countenances. One expression boded over others. It's one part recognition, that wide eyed sense that, "Hey, I know you from somewhere." It's also one part realization when the person figures out exactly where they know your face from. The raised eyebrows tend to give this away.

Then of course, there are the responses. The knowing laughs, or the red-faced titters, the uncomfortable body shifts, or the sweaty palms. As much as I've seen the look, I still never know quite how to respond to it. Do I smile? Do I wave? Do I turn away? Maybe one day I'll just walk up, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm a porn actor. Perhaps you've seen my work?" After 10 years and 1100 flicks, I'm not shy about what I do, and I'm damn sure not ashamed. I am weary though. I hate having to sidestep the steaming piles of assumptions people tend to toss in my way. I mean, if it isn't the voyeuristic husbands offering you $2,000 to lick butter off their wife's calves, it's the morality police accusing you of stealing their teenager's virtue.

People are entitled to their opinions about who I am, and what I do, but I prefer not to indulge them. I love the advantages my work presents, the parties, the cash, the sex. But for every perk, there's also a disadvantage. Whatever the case though, my carping didn't apply to this woman. In her I saw nothing but sheer carnal curiosity. There were no lewd jokes or autograph requests, no morality speeches or judgemental sneers. Just a fuck you stare that triggered chills along my spine.

I wasn't about to come on to her too strong. Sure, she may have seen me before, but she may not really have given a shit. I certainly didn't. I was more preoccupied with figuring out how I'd ask for her phone number when my checkup was done. The fat assistant called me for my exam. I got up, handed her some paperwork, then followed the dark-haired beauty to the back of the office. She ushered me into an examination room and gestured toward a plush swivel chair, "My name's Luzette." She said, as I settled into the seat.

She smiled, shook my hand, then began fussing with the eye exam machines. She then turned to me and then started tossing out the standard pre-exam questions. How was my sight? When was the last time I had my eyes checked? Blah, blah, blah. Even as I answer I could see her eyes narrowing, intensifying. Luzette fidgeted in her chair, her tongue swept quickly across glossed lips. She leaned closer, penlight in hand. Her neck smelled of perfume, her breath like mint. My dick stiffened instantly.

The exam proceeded routinely enough with me chatting and Luzette guiding me through a battery of tests. She told me a little about herself, when she started the eye doctor's office, what she was hoping to do when she finally left there. Not once did she let on that she might have seen me before. She was cordial, sweet even, but as the exam proceeded she became more professional. The intensity that I had felt from her earlier now seemed to have waned. Maybe Luzette wasn't feeling me after all, maybe I had just mistaken curiosity for lust.

"I'll be right back." She said as she stepped out of the room. I slumped in my seat, waiting for her to come back and send me home. I began to wonder if I had been wrong about her, about that look she had given me. Maybe she was just being nice, just keeping a customer happy. I'd already given up on seducing Luzette when I heard her heels clicking on the hallway floor outside the exam room. When she walked back into the room Luzette's expression had changed yet again. The fire had returned to her eyes. Her tongue was now working its way slowly across her top lip. The stare that had threatened to singe me when I had first strolled into the office, it was back; and this time it was more intense than ever. I smiled and stared back. My heartbeat picked up. My dick, which has softened, stirred again.

"So, you weren't going to tell me, were you?" Luzette said, closing and locking the door beyond you, "You just thought you were going to get out of here without me saying something, huh? I know who you are." I shrugged, "What was I supposed to say," I asked, "I don't just go around announcing that I fuck for a living. Not to say that I haven't been seriously considering that option lately."

Luzette chuckled and sat in the chair next to me. She studied my face for a second, then reached out and touched my beard, "Maybe not that, but you could have said something. You know? Because when I saw you, I kept asking myself if you were the guy in all those movies that my boyfriend has. I've seen you, I don't know how many times." I laughed softly and caressed her hand, which was still on my face. I move down her arm and began rubbing her shoulder.

I felt her stiffen, but she didn't withdraw, "Truthfully, I don't even like most of them men I see in those movies." She continued, her voice a smokey whisper. Her strong hands running over my head now, "Most porn is made with guys in mind, not women. It gets so bad I sometimes find myself getting off on the women right along with my boyfriend."

"How so?" I ask. She laughed again, "I mean, how can the guys who make those envision their ideal as some perky blonde with big tits, or some chocolate model with a heart-shaped ass, and then think we women are secretly pining away for some crystal meth addict, wearing nothing but two tattoos, a Budweiser belly, and his black dress socks? What the hell is all that about?" She leaned in closer, her minty breath wafting under my nose. Her hand had made its way from my head, down my shoulder, and over to my bicep.

"But it seems like things are getting a little better for us." She squeezed my arm admiringly. It took all my willpower to resist the childish urge to flex and tell her my gym schedule, but I kept quiet as she continued, "I've been watching you for about three, four years now, and you haven't disappointed me yet. All I can say is, 'Bravo.' Looks like somebody finally got the memo." My dick was rapidly turning to Quikrete. Her caresses were mostly to blame, but I was also turned on by her frankness and her aggressiveness. She wasn't intimidated or deterred by what I do, she wasn't even unduly curious; she just seemed appreciative, like what I did actually mattered in her life.

I smiled, struggling to conceal my pleasure. I wasn't doing anything, though, to hide my arousal. I casually leaned back so she could get a better view of the bulge in my pants, but her eyes never left mine, "So, do you always fuck like you do in those movies? Just going on, and on like that? Or is that just what you do when you're at work?"

"Nah. To tell you the truth, I'm never off the clock. Ever." She pursed her lips and nodded slowly. I was making progress. I reminded myself to move slowly, to just get the number. After that, I was certain I'd see her again. "So what makes you ask?" I continued, "Your boyfriend doesn't give it to you like you like it, or something? Is that why you're all up in his porn stash?"

I was surprised when she shook her head, "No, come on. That's too easy." She said, "I wouldn't be bothered if he couldn't satisfy me. It's not that he's a bad fuck or anything, but we've been together for six years now. And I just think we're... I don't know, comfortable with each other, I guess? It's good sex, but it's routine. We switch it up occasionally to keep things interesting, watch a few movies, try to learn new things. But he's familiar to me. I know him, how he feels, what he's thinking, what he wants to try. Sometimes I wonder what it must be like to just get fucked by somebody I hardly know, by someone I know will do what I want, how I want." She smiled, "I guess that's why I'm into porn. They represent an ideal scenario for me. No strings, no complications, just lots of fun and know-how. It's like getting tips from... I don't know, the pros, I guess." As she finished these last two words her gaze finally fell to my crotch.

By now, I wasn't saying much of anything. There are times when a man doesn't need words. When only his body should be speaking for him. And this was one of those times. I looked at Luzette, licked my lips, then pulled her closer to me. Phone number be damned, I wanted that pussy. Right then, right there. I stood up from my chair and pulled her up with me, wrapping her in my arms.

I leaned over and whispered in her ear, "So, what about the other people out in the office?" I asked, "Aren't they going to need this room for something? I don't want to get you in trouble." She shook her head, "The other assistant is out to lunch, and the receptionist never comes back here. Besides, there's another exam room. We've got this one to ourselves, unless you're scared of getting caught."

I hesitated for a second, unsure about her take on the circumstances. Of course, I didn't care if people saw me. I looked at her and figured, "Fuck it." With that, I slid my tongue into her mouth. Her own embrace tightened around my waist, and she ground her pelvis against my dick. We kissed, rubbing each other, and grinding our hips together. I moved my hands over her ass, squeezing gently, and pulling her hard against me as I nibbled her neck. I felt her right hand slide from my waist and down my stomach. Her fingers worked furiously to unfasten my belt and then the button on my blue jeans. I could feel her nails brushing past my pubic hair as she slipped her hand down my underwear.

She pulled my dick through the opening in my boxers and rubbed the head against her crotch, "Mm." Luzette moaned. Then she stepped back, squeezed my dick, and arched her eyebrows inquisitively. I looked back at her impassively and nodded. She moved toward me once more, kissing my neck, my chest, my stomach. She then slid down into a crouch and looked up at me. Her hand still working over my dick, her eyes pleading. I stroked her hair with one hand, put the other hand on my hip, then leaned back and closed my eyes as she took my dick in her warm mouth. She worked a dick like a pro as she deepthroated me. Every now and then she'd look up and tell me how good I tasted to her, and each time she did I just grabbed the back of her head, and shove her mouth back on my dick. Each time she'd jump back on it without delay. She must have sucked me for about 10 minutes before I slid out of her mouth. I took her hand and pulled her to her feet, then I started to unbutton her lab coat, "Don't worry about the coat." She said, "Take off my pants and fuck me."

I shook my head. I wasn't about to rush through this pussy. I was going to fuck Luzette right, "I want to see your titties." I demanded, "I want to suck them until your nipples get really hard. And then, I want to fuck your tits." I felt her chest heave, then just pulled back in the lab coat, fell to the floor, revealing her green blouse and form fitting pants. I could see that her nipples were already hard. When I pinched them with my thumb and forefinger she moaned and licked her lips.

After slipping off her shirt I took Luzette's hand and swung her lightly into the examining chair. I pulled a lever and the chair reclined. Straddling her and then cupping her titties around my dick, I began to pump. Slowly at first, thumbing her nipples with every stroke. She bent her head down and stuck her tongue out, trying to lick the head of my dick as it slid between her breasts. Finally, I stood Luzette up and turned her around. Kissing the nape of her neck I moved my hands over her breasts and down to her pants. I undid them and let them fall to the floor around her ankles. Pressing against her back, I slid my hand into her panties. They were soaking. Her pussy was dripping, the lips puffy, and covered with the same thick juices that were coating my hand.

She breathed hard as I slid my middle finger along the slit of her pussy. I made little circles around her clit and felt her wiggle her ass against my dick. Then I pulled the crotch of her panties to one side and bent her over the exam chair she'd been sitting in, "You want this dick?" I asked. Luzette didn't answer, just nodded furiously and ground harder against me. I stooped down until my face was level with her asshole and kissed her full cheeks, biting each slightly. I lapped at her asshole, then blew hard into it, "Mm." She groaned. I turned my face into her pussy and began tonguing the slit. I pressed the tip of my tongue against her clit and sucked gently. Normally, I don't fuck with a woman's asshole too much the first we have sex. Many women still don't like to consider their ass as a sexual organ, associating anal stimulation with pain. But Luzette seemed like she really wanted to get loose, so I slipped the tip of my middle finger into her anus and waited for the response.

Her reaction was to move her ass in little circles, urging me to finger fuck her harder. My fingers toy with her a bit more while my tongue was deep inside her pussy. By now, my mind was as engaged as my body. Every now and then Luzette would moan with sheer pleasure. I could barely contain myself as I thought about how she beautiful she was, how badly I wanted her when she first walked into the examination room. Now, here I was, my face between her shapely legs, bringing her to climax. When the anticipation overwhelmed me, I stood up. Luzette was still bent over, legs quivering, "Don't move." I commanded. I yanked her panties down to her knees, gripped my dick, and moved into her. As wet as she was, her pussy still made for a tight fit.

She sucked in her breath as I pushed, "Damn." She groaned, "Damn." I pushed harder. I felt my dick sliding deeper, and deeper, until my pelvis was slamming against her ass. Every stroke made her butt jiggle; she moaned and grunted as I made my dick probe her walls, moving my hips sharply from left to right as I pounded away. I moved faster, watching her ass jump with increasing quickness, enjoying the sound of my flesh slapping against hers. Luzette bent over farther, pushing her face into the seat of the chair to muffle her groans, which were growing louder. I slapped her ass hard for good measure.

Suddenly, I felt her legs start to shake and her ass buck. It was a struggle to stay on, but I managed to keep giving her the dick. Finally, she unleashed a moan that even a chair couldn't smother, her voice rising and surely falling out into the hallway. But I didn't care. I kept going, driven by the knowledge that I was inside her, that I made Luzette cum so hard. Moments later I felt myself on the verge of my own orgasm. My skin went cold and hot at the same time, and my muscles tightened. Luzette tossed me another of those looks and then smiled as I pulled out and then came on her ass. I shivered and spasm. I let loose a deep breath and stagger back against the door, my stomach glistening with our bodily fluids. I caught my breath after a few seconds as she adjusted her panties, pulled up her slacks, and put on her lab coat.

I follow suit, buckling my own pants and fixing my shirt, "So, when can I call you?" I ask, pulling her into an embrace. Luzette shook her head, reminding me that she was involved. I almost roared with laughter. Here I was chasing a number, trying not to be too forward, and all the time she just wanted to fuck, "But," Luzette added, "I'll see you next time you come in and get your eyes checked, right?"

"Damn straight you will." I said. She smiled broadly. Somehow, I knew we'd fuck again, but it would only be on her terms, on her time. I was a private passion, not one to be overindulged. She was writing the script, I just had to make sure not to flub my lines. Somehow, I knew I wouldn't. Then Luzette unlocked the door, and in her best professional detached voice told me I could finish up at the front counter, and let me half-stumble past her into the corridor. Luzette's pussy had been like a drug, and I was still buzzing. Hell, I was feeling so good I barely even noticed the receptionist and the fat assistant giggling at me from the examination room across the hall.

All right, welcome back. We just listened to "Luzette," by Darrell Dawsey, which appears in Brown Sugar 4: Secret Desires.

Erica: And that was a good one.

Kenrya: It was.

Erica: He did such a great job of just writing and explaining. Some of our stories are a little lighter, and this one is a little heavy handed.

Kenrya: It's a fun romp.

Erica: A little heavy handed.

Kenrya: I thought it was fun romp.

Erica: But not beating you over the head with it, it was done very well. This is one of my faves, primarily because it was unexpected. I didn't quite... I mean, I guess I knew that they were going to fuck, but that was just...

Kenrya: It was a possibility that it could have just been about the anticipation, and then the sex didn't happen.

Erica: Yeah. And this one was a good romp. Like you said. I know Luzette went home with a good story, and the fact that she had this guy, who's a sex worker, porn star, weak in the knees...

Kenrya: Right?

Erica: Was just... Oh.

Kenrya: Bad bitch.

Erica: Bad bitch. Go Luzette. I also found it interesting that this is written from the male point of view. But, I liked that Luzette was just, "This is what I want, and so we're going to take it." And didn't care much about trying to do this, "Oh, let's talk. Let's be friends." You know, like, "Let me follow up." No, she was like, "Thank you, I'll see you again."

Kenrya: "Thank you for your services. Appreciate you."

Erica: "Thank you. Come again." Yeah.

Kenrya: "Actually, that's going to be all."

Erica: Like, "So, what you about to do?"

Kenrya: "Because I'm about to go back to work."

Erica: Yeah, "I got to go back to work. What are you about to do?"

Kenrya: And I loved that her girls were out there listening.

Erica: Yes. Because you know, if you work in a small office, or whatever, y'all know everybody's business. And they were just probably out there giggling and laughing at this man.

Kenrya: I feel like when she walked out... Because, remember she walked out, and then she came back in? She was like, "I got him. Y'all going over here. It's fixing to go down."

Erica: "Don't let nobody come in here."

Kenrya: Exactly.

Erica: Stay out of that room.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: Yeah. That was a good one. What are your thoughts?

Kenrya: I thought it was good. It was interesting, because while I was reading it, I was like, "Oh, this really is..." I was getting into it as I was reading it, like, "Oh, this is well written. It's kind of funny." I love that he has a sense of humor about himself; and while he's explaining that he does sex work, it was interesting to hear how he feels about that, and how that influences the way that he interacts with people. And not even just women, just people in general. I never thought about what it might be like to be a sex worker and then encounter people outside of that context, and how they might perceive you. And to hear it...

Kenrya: I think at some point we'll do that with women who do sex work on the show too, but to hear that from this man's perspective, I thought, was pretty interesting. I liked that he... Yeah, he talked about her body, but he, more so, talked about, like, he liked the way that she...

Erica: Tasted and felt.

Kenrya: Yeah, and even before the sex, that he liked her attitude and that she was cool.

Erica: And the way she responded.

Kenrya: Yeah, and I liked that, because I think that oftentimes, and it's, honestly, part of the reason why... I know, I love porn. But why, sometimes, erotica appeals to me over porn, in certain instances. Because so much of that... Men are super visual, although, I'm visual too. But, you know, with them it's all about the closeup of the pussy. You know what I mean?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: So, that he wasn't just focused on her individual body parts, that he literally was talking about her, and viewing her as a whole person, even before he had even learned what her name was. That was sexy to me.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah. And there is an element of flirting and foreplay that was taking place out in the lobby, I guess, of the reception area.

Kenrya: Yeah, when she was staring at him.

Erica: Yeah. And that is so sexy. I think one of the difficulties as a single woman, you're like... The flirting part is difficult, and awkward.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: Flirting is always awkward. But the older you get...

Kenrya: I feel like it's not awkward for you, though, you're a huge fucking flirt.

Erica: I am a flirt, but I am a very overt flirt.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: I don't do subtle flirt. I'm like, "Hey, how that beard feel?" You know.

Kenrya: I want y'all to understand that's literally something that she said to somebody, but it was a little bit more graphic than that.

Erica: It was definitely graphic.

Kenrya: It worked.

Erica: Yeah. And so, the idea of the flirting, the coy cat and mouse game that was going on, was such a turn on. And just a slow build to a very hot scene.

Kenrya: And that he picked up on it. I know for me, one of the ways that I flirt is that I make eye contact. I was trying to explain this to my friend the other day, I was like, "You know, I don't..." Because he was asking me what somebody was wearing, or some shit, and I was like, "I don't fucking know." And he was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "As a woman walking around, I do not make eye contact with men, unless I already know them." Like on the street and shit. Because a lot of men take that as a fucking invitation. And he noticed it, but he noticed it as flirting, and he didn't immediately jump to, "Oh, I'm fixing to fuck her." And he wasn't gross about it, and I think a lot of times that's what happens.

Kenrya: I liked that it was kind of a realistic depiction of the way that a lot of women, who are not as comfortable and overt with it as you are, that's how we flirt. I sustain eye contact. That means something for me.

Erica: That's so funny that you say that. Because I have lots of eye contact with men, and it goes back to my, "Always trying to make sure some crazy shit ain't about to go down."

Kenrya: You mean just being a nigga, keeping your head on a swivel?

Erica: I check a man out. I need you to know that I see you, because in case some shit go down, nigga, I can identify you.

Kenrya: Oh my God.

Erica: It's so horrible.

Kenrya: It's not horrible.

Erica: And they'll probably see that and think, "Oh, she's checking me out."

Kenrya: "Oh, she's..." Yeah.

Erica: And I'm like, "No, you look a little weird, and if you're trying to put a bitch in a choke hold, I got a description for police."

Kenrya: Really? Bitch, what I have found is anytime, any fucking time, I make direct eye contact with a man that I don't know, he takes that shit as an invitation.

Erica: Yeah. But I do have men that walk up and try to talk, and sometimes I play, and sometimes I'm like, "No. I was looking at you to make sure that I can identify you. Get the fuck on." You know? So, yeah, I do have men approach me, and I think it's not necessarily... I mean, I am a bad bitch.

Kenrya: Yes, bitch.

Erica: But it's not because I'm some hot goddess.

Kenrya: Is it though?

Kenrya: It's because I look at a motherfucker in the eye.

Kenrya: Isn't it though?

Erica: Well it is. But I look at him in the eye, and they probably look at that as like, "Oh."

Kenrya: An invitation, yeah.

Erica: Because I say all the time, "What about me makes..." I have had some weird ass men approach me.

Kenrya: It's because you're making all that eye contact.

Erica: Yeah, and I'm like, "What about me says you can approach me?"

Kenrya: Mm, doofy nigga. Come talk.

Erica: Bitch, you looked a bitch in the eye.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: You gave them the fucking bat signal.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: I did not realize that.

Kenrya: Yes, yes.

Erica: Oh.

Kenrya: That brings the niggas to the yard. Mind blown.

Erica: Mind blown.

Kenrya: It does, though. Yeah, so I am very pointed about it. I keep my eyes slightly averted because it seems to be a really strong signal for a lot of men.

Erica: Huh, okay.

Kenrya: Yeah, ain't that something? So, I liked that that was the way that she flirted, and that there was this kind of coy, "I see you. I see you see me, see you."

Erica: My shit would have been like, "So, yeah. In Booty Talk 89, you did this thing where you spun a bitch on your dick. You want to go back and try?"

Kenrya: Let's try that. We got some space in the back.

Erica: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we've got some space. We can try it out here, he obviously ain't shy. No...

Kenrya: And so, that's what was really, I think, part of why we picked this episode, is that they had sex in an interesting place.

Erica: Yes.

Kenrya: Right.

Erica: Yeah, the eye doctor.

Kenrya: An eye doctor's office, on the fucking exam table. Which is dope. Like, he said, "I pushed a lever and the thing..." I'm like, "Yes. You can have some fun with that."

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: I feel like they didn't have enough fun with that.

Erica: No, but they had some good fun.

Kenrya: Yeah. Well, because he could stand up straight. Well, no it probably don't go that high.

Erica: This bitch over here about to draw diagrams, and be like, "Well, if you invert your leg 30 degrees."

Kenrya: I was thinking about some things.

Erica: Oh my gosh.

Kenrya: It's fine, it's fine. So, that makes me wonder, what's the most interesting place where you've had any type of sex? So, it doesn't have to be full on penetration.

Erica: See, the problem is I can't really tell you without...

Kenrya: Incriminating yourself?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: You don't have to say the city.

Erica: In an elected official's office.

Kenrya: Oh.

Erica: Multiple times.

Kenrya: Damn.

Erica: Without said elected official.

Kenrya: Right, just in their office while they were away.

Erica: Yeah. It doesn't even feel wild or strange, because that was my office-fucking spot.

Kenrya: Shut the fuck up.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there was anything else interesting. Something else will probably come. I'm like Luzette, if I want it, I take it.

Kenrya: You take it. Yeah.

Erica: What about you?

Kenrya: Girl.

Erica: Oh my gosh, if you don't say it I'm going to tell you.

Kenrya: Which one?

Kenrya: No, you share what you want.

Kenrya: I had sex in the botanical garden.

Kenrya: Okay.

Kenrya: That was a lot of fun.

Erica: That's what I was thinking of.

Kenrya: Yeah, with those... And it was under the moonlight, with the breeze hitting my bare ass.

Erica: Something about doing things outdoors is fun. I love day drinking outside.

Kenrya: Day drinking, day fucking.

Erica: Yeah, outside?

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah. I think I have a bit of a voyeurism thing. The idea of it being so quiet. We could hear people walking by on the street, literally a foot away. And we over here fucking somewhere we're really not supposed to be.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: That was hot as shit. Where else? I don't know how to say this without incriminating... Well, fuck it. I don't give a shit. In the capital building in Washington D.C., in various places. Various closets, and bathrooms, and observation rooms. Yeah. Places that y'all might have seen on television during hearings.

Erica: On a tour, on the capital tour.

Kenrya: Lots of that.

Erica: Yeah, you was fucking in there.

Kenrya: Oh yeah, lots of that. On lots of super old historical furniture.

Erica: Done lots of car sex.

Kenrya: Oh yeah, lots of car sex. Including out in the open, with people walking by. Lots of that.

Erica: Yeah. Lots of car sex.

Kenrya: Where else have I had sex that was interesting? Various bathrooms, and you know.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Because sometimes you just got to make it happen.

Erica: Movie theater.

Kenrya: Oh yeah. Did that during... Oh, college? Have I had sex in the movies since college? I don't think I have. Was yours recent?

Erica: No, it wasn't recent.

Kenrya: Okay.

Erica: Yeah, I've gotten fingered in public.

Kenrya: Oh yeah, the club.

Erica: Oh shit

Kenrya: Bitch.

Erica: I literally had a flashback of like... We both looked at each other, I was like, "Did you just become my best friend?"

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: Yeah. So we went to this club years ago.

Kenrya: In Miami.

Erica: We were at this club, I meet this dude, and we're just... I don't even want to say we was vibing, because there was no conversation.

Kenrya: We were drunk, drunk.

Erica: We were drunk, feeling the music, you know, titties start sweating and shit. So, me and this dude find this elevator, and we're like, "Fine. We just going to go at it on this elevator."

Kenrya: Nigga.

Erica: So, we go and we get on this elevator, and we start kissing, he's finger fucking me, we're just getting it on. Bitch. The elevator goes two fucking floors. It was an elevator in a club that went from the first floor to the second floor, so we just kept going ding, ding, ding. And there was a bouncer upstairs, and every time the fucking doors would open, there I am, nigga's hand's in my pussy, my titty in my mouth, and he kind of looks. And then the seventh, eighth... This shit went on for a minute. After a while the bouncer was like, "Y'all got to get the fuck out." Come on.

Kenrya: I mean, he gave y'all a lot of leeway.

Erica: He gave us a lot of leeway, but he was like, "Look, I know y'all are tired of seeing me, because I'm tired of seeing y'all. Y'all got to go." Oh my god. It was so horrible.

Kenrya: Wait. So, while she's doing this, I'm out in the car getting my pussy ate. It was a lovely night.

Erica: Oh, to be young and reckless again.

Kenrya: Oh lord, yeah. That was fun times.

Erica: That was such a wild night.

Kenrya: It was.

Erica: Oh my god. Not that I totally forgot about it, but I totally forgot about it.

Kenrya: But that happened, yeah. That was a whole last weekend.

Erica: I think that was really... That was... Yeah.

Kenrya: Have you had sex on a beach? Didn't you do it on... Or was that one of our friends?

Erica: No, I left the beach to go. Because, sex on the beach is not cute.

Kenrya: It's not. No. You get sand in places where it's not supposed to be.

Erica: Sand is everywhere.

Kenrya: That shit hurts.

Erica: Don't nobody need no added friction. So, one of the things I liked about the story, this nigga ate ass.

Kenrya: Yes.

Erica: In a good way.

Kenrya: Like, immediately. She didn't have to wait for it.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: She was just like, "Let's go."

Erica: That was a good depiction of ass eating. Because... Yeah.

Kenrya: And I liked that he said, he was like, "Usually I wait, but she seemed like she was trying to get it in."

Erica: He wanted for her response. He tried it out.

Kenrya: Exactly. Exactly. And he was like... Something I think is true, that a lot of women associate any type of anal play with pain. And I'm like, "There's nerves there, that shit feels fantastic if you know what you're doing, and you relax." And we already talked about anal on the first episode.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yes, we are both fans. But, some nice ass eating, or even just a finger.

Erica: Yeah, that was a good... Since we've got to do the ESPN analysis of their fucking, he played with it a lot before he went at it.

Kenrya: Yes, there was lots of foreplay. She sucked his dick for 10 minutes. He didn't say how long that he was down there, but it seemed like there was lots of changing of positions, and adding of the fingers, and that didn't happen within the course of a minute. And for her to be dripping by the time it was time to have sex, he had put in some actual work.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. That was a good one.

Kenrya: Which, I guess, goes back to him being a pro, and knowing that you're not just fixing to stick it in.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah.

Kenrya: That's just the benefit of stepping out with a pro. If you're going to do it, at least it's worth it.

Erica: Right? At least... Yeah. At least do it right. I wonder if porn stars... Because it's still acting, and because it's still a script, is there really...

Kenrya: He said he's never off the clock.

Erica: Oh. Yeah.

Kenrya: I feel like that was mostly a line, but can you separate? You've got to be able to, though.

Erica: I was down a Twitter hole, and this woman asked other sex workers, "How are you different as a sex worker? How are you different with a client versus in a relationship?" And interestingly enough, many of the sex workers said that they're more tame in relationships, than they are with clients. Because with clients, you know what you're there for. You get to get reckless, try out new things.

Kenrya: Right. And there's no judgment, I would imagine. Or at least no fear of judgment.

Erica: Exactly. But in a relationship it's more...

Kenrya: Let things unfold over time.

Erica: Yeah. Like how much does he want, you know. So, I think that's probably what made this situation so hot. She knows what she's getting, she knows what she wants.

Kenrya: She's been watching him fuck for four years.

Erica: He's like, "I'm going to give it to you."

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: You know, without, "Will he love me in the morning?"

Kenrya: None of the fucking preamble.

Erica: Without the Andre 3000, Where Are My Panties interlude.

Kenrya: Exactly. She had her shit on before he even pulled up his pants. I was like, "Yes bitch."

Erica: I love it.

Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah, I love that she just went after it, and that he gave it to her.

Erica: Yup.

Kenrya: And understood his place. And when she made it clear, he said she just shook her head, and he was like, "Oh. Reminded me that she had a man already." I was like, "Yes, way to listen. Play your role."

Erica: I ain't trying to fuck up your home. Don't fuck up mine.

Kenrya: Right.

Erica: Just give me what I want.

Kenrya: Let it be.

Erica: I love it.

Kenrya: I thought it was dope.

Erica: One of the things that we noted about Luzette is that she's a woman that goes after what she wants. Have you had a situation with a man, a boo, a partner, where y'all was somewhere, and you was just like, "You know what? We've got things to do, and they need to happen right now." Which probably resulted in a strange-place-fucking.

Kenrya: Yeah, I'm kind of notorious for just saying it all the time, and I think it takes a special kind of person to fuck with me. I don't demure. There is a partner who I've been with, who, on our second date, I was just like, "So, I'd like to fuck you." And he laughed, and he was like, "Okay."

Erica: "All right, like now?"

Kenrya: Right? He did, he did, he was like, "Right now? This weekend?" He was really...

Erica: "Do I need to go home and cleanup?"

Kenrya: Yes. It took him a minute, he was a little taken aback. And then he laughed, and was just like, "Okay. We'll let's talk logistics." And I think they get over the initial shock of the bluntness once they realize I'm not thinking. If I want to have sex, I'm going to say it. And there have been some men who I think have...

Erica: They enjoy the chase, they want the chase.

Kenrya: Yeah, and they wanted, maybe, a softer touch. Like, "Oh, let me caress your head. Let me..."

Erica: Act like you don't want it. Like, no.

Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not going to do that, though. I do want it. I'm not going to pretend that I don't.

Erica: Unless we're in a scene.

Kenrya: Sure. If it's a scene, that's fine. But I want to have sex, and sometimes it's literally just me standing in front of you, and being like, "Okay, I want to have sex now. Let's do this."

Erica: Make it go up, do I need to put your dick in my mouth?

Kenrya: Yeah, that's fine. Let's go.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah. In general, I find that they appreciate the directness. That they don't feel like they've got to dance around it. Like when you were in your 20s, where... God. I'm having vivid memories of niggas trying to tickle me, or trying to rub my back.

Erica: Or falling asleep, and then they dick in your back.

Kenrya: Yeah. I'm like, okay. I don't need the pretense, I don't need the preamble. We can just say what we want to do. And that's not dirty, unless you want it to be. Just like you could say, "Hey, let's do this." I can say, "Hey, let's do this." So yeah, I tend to. Sometimes that's how... We're in a car, at noon, on the side of the road, because your home is too far away and so is mine, and I want to do this right now. And so we do. And that is a thing.

Erica: Tips hat to you.

Kenrya: Thank you. Thank you. I have fun. What about you?

Erica: Yeah. When I drink, I get fluffy. I get real...

Kenrya: Loosey goosey.

Kenrya: When I drink I love everybody.

Kenrya: This is true.

Erica: My friends get so tired of me, because I am like the drunk bitch like, "Look at me."

Kenrya: She is.

Erica: "Look at me right now. I fucking love you, I would fucking kill for you, and your fucking dog, and your cousin. Because I fucking love you." That's me when I drink.

Kenrya: And you usually go to sleep for a little while.

Erica: Huh?

Kenrya: And then you usually go to sleep for a while.

Erica: I fall asleep, and I wake back up, and I'm on.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: But, yeah. If we're out drinking, I get a little frisky. If I'm with my boo I get frisky, and yes, we've got to do it. So, I have had lots of car sex, lots of head on the way home.

Kenrya: That's dangerous.

Erica: I know it is.

Kenrya: I mean, I've done it.

Erica: It's so wrong.

Kenrya: I always realize I'm taking my life into my mouth.

Erica: And it was like, "Damn. If I get into a car accident, they're going to have to tell my granny that I died with a dick in my mouth."

Kenrya: Your head was crushed between a dick and a steering wheel, bitch.

Erica: Yeah, that ain't right. That's the only reason that I be trying to not do it, but I do it still.

Kenrya: Yeah, you know. It's fine. So, how do you initiate it? Do you say it, like how I say it, do you grab dicks?

Erica: I grab a dick.

Kenrya: Okay.

Erica: I definitely grab a dick and look them in the eye.

Kenrya: Here we are, here we are.

Erica: "Put this in my pussy."

Kenrya: Bitch. Just like that?

Erica: Yeah, "Put it in." No. But, yeah. I grab it, or I say, "Hey, let's fuck."

Kenrya: "Let me see your dick." Yeah.

Erica: I mean, I'm pretty overt about it. You know. Yeah, I am truly roleplaying when I'm on some, "I don't want to. Take it later." No, I'm generally... Especially if I'm feeling you, I'm generally always down. Especially if I'm on my period. Do you get horny as hell when you're on your period?

Kenrya: I'm always horny.

Erica: Huh?

Kenrya: I'm always horny.

Erica: Oh my god, I'm like a fucking monster.

Kenrya: Toward the end I do see a little bit of an uptick, and it has resulted in not being able to wait. For sure. Put a towel down.

Erica: Yeah, that's what towels are for.

Kenrya: Yeah, there's a bit of an uptick. But my baseline is pretty high.

Erica: Yeah, when you're with somebody you're just like, "Let's do it."

Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah. I'm always kind of ready, unless I'm sleepy. The only thing that ever keeps me from having sex, honestly, is I be so fucking sleepy. Which is why I like day sex.

Erica: I have a friend that was like, "Look. Either I'm fucking, or we fucking. But I'm fucking."

Kenrya: Oh shit. I like it.

Erica: And I'm like, "This is so wrong, but I can respect it."

Kenrya: Yeah. I guess. No, I think that's part of why I'm partial to lunch sex. Because I'm fresh.

Erica: We're all awake.

Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not thinking about what time I've got to get up in the morning. So, I kind of hit a wall when I'm sleepy. It happened last night, where I go from being fine, and then I'm telling you I'm fine, but my eyes are really going in different directions. And there ain't too much I can do once I hit that wall. So, a lot of times I be trying to do it before...

Erica: It's coming, it's coming, it's coming, I see the sleep coming. Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah. It ain't no, "Oh, let's get comfortable in the bed, and sit here, and talk." No nigga.

Erica: No. If you want this pussy...

Kenrya: Let's get to it. And then we can try to lie here, and talk, and I will probably fall asleep. But, in the morning, I'm going to be hype; and I'll probably suck your dick, so we'll be fine. But that's really the only thing that keeps me from partaking. I just be so tired. I'm busy as fuck, all the time.

Erica: Yeah. If I'm tired... I'm never too tired to fuck, because if I'm tired, I'm like, "This is going to be some good sleep."

Kenrya: That's a good way to look at it.

Erica: Like, "Oh, this sleep is going to be so good."

Kenrya: Yeah. I feel like I'll end up being on some lazy shit. Which is sometimes fine, to just lie there, and let your partner handle it.

Erica: Yeah. I'm sleepy, I'm tired.

Kenrya: You know this coming in.

Erica: You know this.

Kenrya: So you can make the decision.

Erica: So, you're going to get the fish.

Kenrya: Yeah. But I try not to do that, I feel bad. But yeah.

Erica: No, because you're going to get some lazy dick in a minute. So just give him some lazy pussy.

Kenrya: Have I ever got lazy dick?

Erica: You might not... Well, you know. I'm thinking about your current partnership.

Kenrya: Oh yeah. No, I ain't never got lazy dick in my current situation. Whew, Lord. I haven't gotten lazy dick, but there was someone who I was with, who you know well. So, I eventually broke up with him because he was a lazy person in general. But, I remember at one point he complained about giving me head, because he said it was too much work, and it made too much of a mess to clean up.

Erica: One, you've got to put in some work for this pussy. Two, the mess is a part of the fun.

Kenrya: It is part of the fun.

Erica: Oh my gosh.

Kenrya: Yeah. So, the Kenrya of 2019 would just never fuck that nigga again. But the Kenrya of, I don't know, that was...

Erica: 2000.

Kenrya: Yeah, around that time, college. Was just like, "Bet. I'm not sucking your dick no more."

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: I never sucked his dick again, he only lasted a few more months after that.

Erica: Yeah, because it's like, how are you going to half-ass sex?

Kenrya: I was like, "Well then, we ain't go no reciprocity, then we can just literally do penis in vagina, I can get off, and then we can keep it moving."

Erica: Yeah, once that happened you might have slapped a time bomb on the side of that joint.

Kenrya: Yeah, it was just counting down. So, I kept up with that part of it, but there was no... And I'm really good at head. So, he was depriving himself of a fantastic time.

Erica: Yeah, because that's the thing. Sucking dick, that's when I get to show off. I put my hair in a ponytail, and I be like, "Look, let me show you what the fuck I can do."

Kenrya: Yes. That's why early relationship sex sucks. So, you know, I do the whole get tested, blah, blah, blah. I feel like one of the biggest tools in my fucking tool belt has been removed from me.

Erica: You're fighting with one hand.

Kenrya: Yeah. That's why I'm like, "Let's get tested so I can actually go to work."

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: And then I've had men who are like, "We'll we can just use a flavored condom." And I'm like, "First of all, that's too small. Second of all, you're not going to get the full effect." You can't feel the wetness. That's part of what makes it intense.

Erica: I'm a pro. I like gag, spit, all of that.

Kenrya: Absolutely. All of the things. And you're missing out on all of that if you have a condom on. It literally feels like I can't do all my tricks if I can't do that trick. I need to get some more tricks to the bags, maybe. I don't know. But that's my favorite trick.

Erica: That's like entry level trick.

Kenrya: And it's not even just, "Oh, okay, I get to show off." But I really enjoy it at this age.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: It's fun, it gets me excited because I get to see how much pleasure I'm bringing. When you start squirming... Whew, god.

Erica: Whew.

Kenrya: That's a turn on to me. So, I feel like not only are you missing out, but I'm missing out. So it's a really key thing for me. So yeah, I just deaded it. That's the only person I can think of that was ever lazy in sex in any way.

Erica: I've had a lot of lazy fuckers.

Kenrya: Yeah? Damn.

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Well, hopefully you were more like the Kenrya of 2019, and said, "Fuck them niggas." And kept it moving.

Erica: Oh, I wasn't. But a bitch done learned and now...

Kenrya: Well, we learn, we grow. That's growth.

Erica: Growth. And now, it's like, "Look. Either we all sweating, and hot, and fucking..."

Kenrya: Or we aint. Ain't nobody.

Erica: We aint. Yeah.

Kenrya: Oh, lord.

Erica: All righty, so, on that note. We'll end it on the dick sucking note.

Kenrya: It's a good note.

Erica: It's a good note. Well, thank you for joining us for this week's episode of The Turn On.

Kenrya: Yes. Next week our guest will be...

Erica: Oh, next week our guest will be Carol Taylor, the fantastic and fabulous editor of the Brown Sugar Series. She has a series of Black erotic books, so, really excited to talk to her and learn more.

Kenrya: Yeah, she really created this genre in a lot of ways.

Erica: Yup.

Kenrya: Yeah. So that'll be dope. Make sure you all come back next week to hear from her.

Erica: Yes. So, this is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes.

Kenrya: Making it clap.

Erica: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every 5 star review that you post on Apple Podcast between now and July 31, 2019 will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of the books that we read on the show. We need your help, and we're giving away five books, you just need to post your review, and then email a screenshot of it to [email protected] to enter. And please take a minute to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod, and Instagram @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other dope shit at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Peace.