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Amazon Music | Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Pandora | Radio Public | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | YouTube CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES This week, Erica and Kenrya talk to author, artist and educator Benji Hart about the malleability of gender; the need for expansive, affirmative language around gender identity; art as healing and sustaining practice; collaboration as a pathway to Black liberation; the origins of voguing as a queer Black art form and the ingeniousness of our ancestors. RESOURCES Guest, Benji Hart | Website | Instagram | Twitter Books films and people mentioned in this episode:
TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get, off. [theme music] Kenrya: Hey good people. Today, we're talking to Benji Hart, pronouns they and them. Benji is a Chicago-based author, artist and educator whose work centers Black radicalism, queer liberation, and prison abolition. Their essays and poems have appeared in numerous anthologies, and their commentary has been published at Teen Vogue, Time Magazine, the Advocate and lots of others. They've led workshops for organizations and at academic institutions internationally and facilitated convenings for groups like Law for Black Lives, National Bailout, and The Centers. Their performances have been featured at CA2M in Madrid, Museo Del Chopo in Mexico City, Brick in Brooklyn, and elsewhere. They've been a fellow at the Rauschenberg Foundation and McDowell, and they are a Three Arts awardee in the teaching arts. Hey Benji. Benji Hart: Hey, y'all. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Kenrya: Thank you for saying yes, because you could have said no. Erica: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Benji Hart: Anytime. Thank you so much for inviting me, genuinely. Erica: You are so welcome. So what did little Benji want to be when they grew up? Benji Hart: It's such a cute, funny question. To be relevant to our convo as well as to... Yeah. It just all ties in. It just all ties in. One of my parents' favorite stories about me is that, I think it was on an airplane, a stranger on an airplane asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I was probably like five or six. And I responded that I wanted to be a she wombat. Kenrya: Why a wombat? Benji Hart: Why a wombat? I think I thought a wombat was a type of bat, which it's not. Kenrya: Oh. It's not. Benji Hart: It is definitely not. But little Benji thought it was a bat. But also Lil Benji, before Benji had a lot of the language, did have a very expansive understanding of gender, did believe that gender could change, did believe that what gender you were in the moment did not necessarily need to define what gender you were going to be in the next moment. And I definitely, even when I was little and I envisioned myself as an adult, I often envisioned myself as different genders. Kenrya: Wow. Benji Hart: Sometimes I envisioned myself as a man, sometimes I envision myself as a woman. sometimes I envision myself as gender nonconforming, but when I thought about myself growing up, I didn't always picture the same gendered person in my vision. Benji Hart: And when I was little, I didn't really think about that actually. And it wasn't until I was much older that I started to think about my own gender and also my own evolution, and what did I want to evolve into? And I think that has very much to do with identifying outside of the binary now. I really love, Alok Vaid-Menon talks about the uselessness of the term nonbinary and how they actually don't like the term nonbinary because it's about what you're not instead about what you are and that we need terms for what we are and what our genders affirmatively are, rather than all the things that they're not. And I really love that because I feel like I actually don't have that terminology in this moment. Nonbinary is kind of the best thing that we have, but I'm like actually really not into that. Benji Hart: Let's be real. It's not a cute word. It don't sound cute. So I'm really on the search for, as a Black femme outside of the binary person, what is my gender? But I also think there's power to not knowing or not having a term or not needing a term, and just existing without necessarily needing a name, I think is also something powerful that trans people, that queer people, do all the time. So I'm kind of with that at the same time. Kenrya: No, that's real shit. I mean, it brings to mind... I do a lot of workshops to basically telling folks when they're racist, right? And how to be less racist. And so much at the basic level is about language and the use of words that center whiteness to describe all the rest of us, right? The non-white, the minority, where you center the dominant culture and place the rest of us on the outside. And this feels exactly that, and you're a hundred percent right. Why are we fucking centering the binary? Love that. Benji Hart: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Kenrya: We need that more expansive language. Benji Hart: Yeah. And I really... Oh, I'm sorry. Erica: Keep going. Benji Hart: I was just going to say, I'm not an Indigenous person, indigenous to this continent, I should say, so I don't use the term two spirit, but I love that type of identity. A, one rooted in a cultural, spiritual, de-colonial history, but B, also one that's like, "This is who I am," not, "This is all the things that I'm not." I think Black folks in diaspora need our own term like that, that's like, "This is our Black ass gender. This is what it is affirmatively," rather than, right. "These are all the white supremacist colonial structures that it's not." Kenrya: Yes, absolutely. Erica: Okay, Benji. So that story was just so cute and it makes me wonder, and if this is too personal, then be like, "Bitch, kill it." But how did your parents help you foster this openness and this openness around gender? Benji Hart: I think my mom was a big part of it. And actually, when I was in conversation with adrienne on How To Survive The End Of The World last week, we started getting into this a little bit too. I think like my dad, who is my Black parent, fostered some very strong roots for me around race and racial identity. And my mom, who is my white parent, I think fostered a lot of feminist roots for me. And I think my mom in particular, who I was very close with when I was little, was very protective of me, not in a sheltering way, but in a, "You need to be allowed to be your fullest self and you need to be allowed to figure out who you are without other people interjecting." And I think my mom was very protective of my feminisim as a young person, which again, was not terminology that I had. And was very protective of my softness and my sensitiveness, which in other parts of my life like school and other places were definitely things I was picked on for, definitely things I was an outcast for. Benji Hart: My mom was very intentional about making sure I didn't reject those things, even though other parts of my life and other parts of the world were very much, from a very early age, encouraging me, pressuring me, forcing me to reject those things. I think my mom played a really large role in telling me that who I was was not just acceptable, but important and powerful and beautiful. And I just think so often about... Especially I think around 13, 14, middle school, that's when I was trying my hardest to fit in and trying my hardest to really break those things that, whatever I was doing, that people were calling me gay. I was trying to stop doing that thing. Whatever thing I was doing that people was like, "Why do you do that like a girl? Why do you talk like a girl? Why you act like a girl?" Benji Hart: I was trying to stop doing all of those things, just so that the bullying would stop and the shit talking would stop. And I just failed miserably. I was not fooling anybody. And it was such a painful time trying so hard to fit in and failing so badly, trying so hard to be a man and masculine, trying so hard to be straight, trying so hard to do the things that boys were supposed to be doing at that time, and being so bad at it and being so awkward at it. And now that I'm grown, it feels like such a blessing that I failed. It's like, "Oh my God, thank God." I was trying so hard to kill those things, and they would not let me, and I am so grateful to whoever was watching over me and was like, "No honey, you're not going to kill that. No, you need that. You need to protect that. You need to actually nurture that and support that and carry it with you to the next stage." Benji Hart: And so many of the boys and men in my life were successful. So many of the boys and men in my life were successful at killing off those things, were successful at severing their connection to their sensitivity, to their femininity, to the wisdom that I think men and boys are taught to reject and to sacrifice. And now that I'm grown, I'm like, "Oh my God, thank you that I don't have to rebuild my connection to these things." Because so many of the people in my life are having to dig up the roots that they buried and rebuild the connection that they severed. And if I could go back and tell 13 year old Benji, I'd be like, "Girl, I know this isn't working right now out, but you're going to be grateful." It's going to work out later. Erica: It's going to all pan out. Benji Hart: It's going to work out later. Just ride out middle school. It's going work out. Erica: Jesus gonna work it out. Jesus gonna work it out. I love your mama. I love the fact that she felt that she needed to protect that. And as a parent, I remember my son, second grade, his teacher called me and was like, "Look." She said, "Not only does he talk a lot," she was like, "But he's a lot of person." And I was like, "Bitch, look at the house he grew up in." Right? And I was telling her like, "Yes, it's a problem in second grade. He's disrupting, but I don't want to kill that in him because that is going to be what buys me an island. And I'm going to be laid up on somebody's island, because of it." And so I think that's so beautiful that your mama was like, "Let's protect my baby. Let's make sure we don't kill who they are." So I love it. Benji Hart: That's right. That's right. Kenrya: We've actually had guests talk quite a bit about the idea of a second adolescence that so many queer folks go through where they're coming into who they are, because so often they were not able to do that in that time. And the way that you just described that, of the folks in your life who have had to rediscover and reconnect to that part of themselves that they have killed, it's probably the most moving way I've ever heard that explained. Yeah. That really resonated. Benji Hart: Thank you. Thank you. I definitely feel like I'm drawing on the wisdom and the observations of lots of queer and trans folks. I don't think I'm the first person to make that observation, but definitely as someone who was socialized as a boy and no longer identifies as a boy, just seeing so many of the boys and men who are socialized next to me, socialized around me, the work that they're having to do, the healing work that they're having to do in their adult lives is very, very different from the healing work that I'm having to do. Lord knows I'm doing a lot of healing work. Kenrya: Aren't we all? Lord have mercy. Benji Hart: Lord knows I have a lot of work to do. I have a lot of work that I have done, but it just looks so different. And folks trying to rebuild their sensitivity, rebuild their relationship to femininity. It's like, "Yeah, we here. We here." That's not something I need to rebuild. Erica: That part I'm good on. Let's work on this other stuff. Benji Hart: Exactly. Erica: Okay. So how did you come into your activist self? Benji Hart: I often don't use terms activists or organizer because I think they create sort of a special identity around work that I think we should actually all be doing. And that actually most of us do, but don't get called activists or organizers for doing, especially when we're talking about oppressed and marginalized people. So for me, I see myself as a Black person fighting for my liberation and the liberation of the people that I love and care about. And for me, that's a necessity. For me, that's like, if you are Black and you want to live, this is a fight you have to fight. If you are Black and you love other Black people, which not all Black people do. Kenrya: That part. Benji Hart: If you are Black and you love other Black people- Kenrya: And all Black people. Benji Hart: This is what required of you and all Black people. Kenrya: All Black people. Yup. Benji Hart: Whatever gender they are, whatever language they speak, whatever part of the world they come from, live in. If you love Black people, this is what the moment demands of us collectively. And so even, for things like abolition, police and prison abolition, which is so core to my values and my worldview, that for me is less of a... I wouldn't even call that a political stance. I would call that, if Black people are going to live their fullest lives, which includes me, if I'm going to live my fullest life, these systems have to go. If my nibbling is going to be safe, if my nibbling is going to come up and not have to fear for his life constantly, these systems have to go right now. And it's urgent for me because I want to survive, and it's urgent for me because I want the people I love and care about to survive. And for me it's really quite that simple. Benji Hart: And so certainly I incorporate those beliefs and those values into the work that I do. And that's one of the vehicles that I see for pushing forward Black liberation, not just as a demand, but as a vision. But I think it's a requirement of myself and of all people who love Black people and who love justice. And I think so much of the work that Black communities are doing just to sustain themselves and just to survive is organizing. And that's part of the reason why I don't like feeling like that's a term that's only applied to me or to people who are doing work similar to the work that I'm doing or in the capacity that I am doing it in. Because if you are getting your community together to push back and resist these systems and these structures collectively, not just as a constellation of individuals, but as a collective that is organizing, and Black people are doing that all the time. Black people in the hood are that all the time. Black people, Black families, Black parents, Black mothers, are doing that work all the time. Kenrya: Yeah. So often we talk to folks and they develop themselves along a career path and then they realize that they can marry the, "I'm Black, and I am pushing for all of our liberation," side of themselves with the career part of themselves. Do you know what I'm saying? At what point did you come to realize that your art could be your vehicle for moving us closer to liberation? Benji Hart: It's a great question, A, because I hope that my art can do that. Sometimes I feel like it's doing that and sometimes I don't. So I hope that it can, I hope that it can be a contribution. But the other reason I think it's a great question is because there is a real tension between: What do we do professionally? What do we do as part of a career? What do we do for money? Which we have not abolished capitalism yet, so we need to ask that question sadly. But what do we do to sustain ourselves to survive? And what do we do to help achieve our liberation? Because often those things don't go together. And I think so much of the crisis of this moment for folks who are trying their best to do this work, is: How do you do it sustainably, but in ways that are actually threatening and actually dangerous to the systems and structures that are harming us? Benji Hart: And the reality being the systems and structures are not going to pay you to undo them. The systems and structures are not going to give you no stipend, are not going give you no salary to destroy them. And so I am always doing that balancing act as we all are. But I also think it's real not just to acknowledge the contradictions, but to actually ask ourselves: What are we doing for Black liberation? Because it may not be, in reality, what we're doing for a paycheck. It may not, in reality, be what we're doing to sustain ourselves, because sustaining ourselves often involves participating in the systems that we know are harming us and are harming other Black people. So I try, of course, to sustain myself as well as make what I hope are meaningful contributions to Black liberation, which is to say meaningful contributions to the destruction of white supremacist systems and structures. Benji Hart: But I also often find that there needs to be some distinction between what I do to sustain myself and what I do for Black liberation. So, making my art is, frankly, an incredibly healing thing for me. It's a space that I go to process my own feelings, to expand my own vision for what Black futures might look like. There's lots that I take from it personally that makes it an important part of, frankly, sustaining my practice. And I certainly hope that when I share my art that it's helping do that for other people. That's definitely a hope of mine whenever I share something, is that especially other Black people are being touched and are having their own vision expanded, and are having the parts of themselves tapped into that I'm trying to tap into when I make a piece. Benji Hart: And at the same time, I don't think any art that I make alleviates takes any of the need away for me to be in the street. Me being in the street, me shutting shit down, me going to meetings and me being a part of collective spaces where Black people are figuring out: How do we push back against these systems? Is just as important. So I think it's not that one is more important than the other, or one matters more than the other, but neither can one replace the other. I think our contributions as artists are so important and they need to go along with being at the meeting and talking logistics and showing up to the demonstration and being in the street and potentially getting arrested. All of those contributions are necessary. Benji Hart: And we don't all have to make the same contributions. That's also something I believe. We're not all required to show up in the same way, but we also all need to ask ourselves, "How are we showing up?" And I think how we show up in collectives is a really important question to ask. Because a lot of us ask how we show up as individuals. What am I as an individual doing to help push this conversation, to help raise awareness about this issue? And those aren't bad for questions to ask, but as Mariame Kaba would say, "Everything worthwhile is done in a collective." Everything worthwhile is done together. So what are we doing collectively? And how am I contributing to the collective? I think is a crucial question to ask, that capitalism encourages us not to ask, that white supremacist systems and structures encourage us not to ask. We're encouraged to think of everything as about individual contributions. And I think my individual contributions are my least meaningful contributions. I think what I contribute to the collective are the contributions that I'm the most proud of. Kenrya: Thank you. Erica: All right. So Benji tell us about Dancer as Insurgent. Benji Hart: Dancer as Insurgent is my first solo performance that I wrote, which I actually wrote as an undergraduate at Wesleyan University. So it was essentially my senior thesis for African American studies. And so it's approximately 20 to 25 minute performance. Benji Hart: Looking at sort of the history of vogue. And for me sort of trying to reframe vogue as a radical Black art form, Black queer art form, and situating myself as a voguer within that lineage. And so it's a mix of poetry and spoken word, no musical accompaniment, just me speaking and me dancing, and sort of situating vogue in this radical history and situating myself in a lineage of trans and Black people struggling for our liberation. Kenrya: Right. And you've been voguing since you were 16, right? Benji Hart: That's correct. I came out when I was 14 years old, and I started voguing when I was 16. I joined my first house when I was 18 and I won my first ball when I was 20. Erica: Hey. Hey, how did you... I'm just all off these damn questions. I apologize, because you wrote really great questions. How did you get into voguing? I know they didn't like come to your school and recruit kids. Benji Hart: This is correct. Erica: So how did that happen? Benji Hart: I grew up in Amherst, Massachusetts, which is a suburban college town in Western Massachusetts, mixed race, mixed class, but still predominantly white. And so when I came out, I was one of, if not the only one of, I'll say, very, very, very few out queer kids of color in my high school, one of very few out queer kids period, which meant the pool of queer kids of color was wicked small. Erica: Small to begin with, yeah. Benji Hart: Exactly. So at the beginning, at that point, 14, ninth grade, I really didn't have an identity. I knew that, again using the language that I had at the time, that I was a boy who was attracted to other boys, but I wasn't even using the term gay at the time because the only images of gayness that I had were white images, and just culturally, I was like, "Well, I don't do any of these things that gay people on TV or gay people in the few media sources that I have do, so that must not be my identity." And it wasn't until I sort of began an active search for: What does it mean to be Black and queer? Then I was actually introduced to Marlon Riggs. And “Tongues Untied” is a famous sort of art film that Marlon Riggs made exploring primarily Black gay men's identity, though not exclusively. Benji Hart: And there's an incredible moment in “Tongues Untied” where Essex Hemphill is reading a poem. Essex Hemphill, a Black HIV-positive queer poet is reading this incredible poem. And it's just a showing folks dancing on street corner in New York. And Willi Ninja is one of the voguers. There's just like a bunch of incredible people voguing. And this was really my first time seeing real voguing. And just something inside of me just exploded. I just knew I wanted to do that. And so I started digging and researching. I watched “Paris Is Burning” shortly thereafter. I watched, “How Do I Look” shortly thereafter. Benji Hart: I was just finding whatever material about vogue I could, and I just started practicing on my own. And then it was the summer that I turned 18 that actually a dance mentor who knew Willi Ninja brought me to New York, which is only about four-ish hours away from Western Mass. And I ended up joining the House of Ninja that summer, which was just a wild summer slash my wildest little 18-year-old baby queer dreams coming true. But that was sort of when I started actually participating in the ballroom scene first in New York. And then I moved to Chicago when I was 22, 23. So then I kind of transferred over to the Chicago scene around the time that I was 23. Erica: Okay. All right. So now let's talk about World After This One. Benji Hart: So World After This One is still kind of an in progress piece for me. I think it's getting close to being done, knock on wood. I just did it in progress showing last week actually at the Museum of Contemporary Art here in Chicago and got some really important and positive feedback. So that was an exciting moment for me. But World After This One is this piece that's been in the works for where almost four years now. I've been sort of working on it on and off. And World After This One sort of continues from where Dancers Insurgent left off in a lot of ways. It's another solo performance that only relies on spoken word and movement. And so sort of very minimalist, bare bones aesthetic, but that is looking at voguing, bomba, which is Afro Puerto Rican dance and drumming music, and gospel music, and looking at sort of the lineages and linkages between those three art forms. Benji Hart: So again, I would say kind of situating all three of those art forms in a radical history of Black and queer resistance. But I think also in a different way from Dancer As Insurgent, delving into the gray area and looking at the complicated ways that Black people use the tools, use the materials of empire, of colonization, of white supremacy even in some ways, to construct and imagine Black liberation. And for me, it's kind of a complication of the Audre Lorde adage that the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. For me, this piece is kind of looking at how have Black people actually always been using the master's tools in these complicated and subversive ways, and in ways that are not making a moral judgment about the materials, are not saying "This is radical, or it's not," "This is colonial, or this is not." But it's just saying, "This is here. This is what's available, and this is what I have to use, and I'm going to imagine my liberation with it, regardless of what it is or how it came to me." Benji Hart: And just both the ingeniousness of our ancestors, and the ingeniousness of Black people and being able to transform anything into something that could potentially, not necessarily, but could potentially help imagine Black liberation, and just really forcing us to actually ask, "What even are the master's tools? And who even says the master gets to claim this? Who even says the master gets to say this is theirs. Where is that written? Why can't this be my tool? Why can't this be something that I subvert and that I break and reshape and form into something that actually helps me get free?" Kenrya: Oh, I love your brain. So this really resonated with me. I do a lot of work around encouraging people to freedom dream, right? Thinking about: What does that liberated future look like? And so that brings me to ask you, right? If you close your eyes and you're able to move beyond the state that we are in, what does that liberated future look like to you? And I know that's a huge question. You can pick a small corner of it. Benji Hart: This week, I think I will say that a liberated future is one where Black liberation is not solely Black people's responsibility, and that I think abolition is not a destination. I think Black liberation is not a destination. It is an ongoing commitment and struggle. But I dream of a future where we are not the only ones engaged in that struggle. I dream of a future where Black people being loved and protected and thriving and safe and happy and joyous and healthy is not solely Black people's business. Because I'm so tired of it being our job to liberate ourselves, which really means liberate everybody. I'm frankly really tired of it being Black people's job to liberate everybody. We need support. We need help. We need solidarity. And I dream of a world where that isn't such a radical ask. Benji Hart: And Lord knows I dream of a world where Black young people have access to everything that they need. I dream of a world where Black communities are fully resourced, whatever that looks like for each individual community. I dream of a world without police, prisons, or a military. I dream of world without borders. And I think all of those things are Black liberation, and all of those are things that Black people are fighting for in different parts of the world, in different parts of the diaspora, and I dream of a world where that's not our fight to alone. Kenrya: Especially since we didn't create this bullshit. Benji Hart: Especially since it's literally none of our responsibility. We are not responsible for any of the mess. So the fact that we are, in many regards, the primary, and even in some cases, the only ones, fighting. Kenrya: It's exhausting. Benji Hart: And you know as a half white person, this is a sensitive subject. Kenrya: That's real shit. And that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Okay. So there's this book and it's called “And The Category Is: Inside New York's Vogue House And Ballroom Community.” And it drops in January 2022, which is actually when this episode is going to air, in January. Benji Hart: Amazing. Kenrya: Yes. So we'll link the book in the show notes so that y'all can cop. But in the meantime, can you give us a sneak peek of your essay for that anthology? Because you all up in there. Benji Hart: The funny thing is it's actually a transcribed conversation that I had with Pony Zion, which was moderated by Ricky Tucker and Robert Sember. But it's really this amazing conversation I got to have with Pony Zion back in 2018, 2019, somewhere in there. It's a little hard to remember, but a while back pre-pandemic, pre-pandemic, no mask. And we just kind of all chopped it up, the four of us, but had this amazing conversation about who do you vogue for? Who consumes our art, who consumes our creation as voguers and as Black queer people? Do we have say in that? How do we decide if we do have say? Where does vogue come from and where do we see it going? And I got to talk a little bit about how vogue for me is deeply tied to police and prison abolition. We trace vogue's origins through oral histories back to Rikers Island Prison and oral historians in the ballroom community say that the original voguers were actually incarcerated at Rikers Island when they first created this category, which was originally called Pop Dip and Spin. Benji Hart: And so again, understanding vogue not just as a trans and queer art form, but a Black trans and queer art form. And even more specifically than that, a Black trans and queer art form that was created by incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people. Kenrya: Wow. Benji Hart: That's created by street-based, houseless people, that's created by sex workers, that's created by trans women. And for me, none of those things, you can't vogue without giving reverence to all of those communities, to all of those people, and without demanding liberation for all of those people, which is for me so much of what is missing from people's participation in vogue. And we talked a lot about appropriation and sort of how we conceptualize participation in vogue and in ballroom as that culture continues to spread globally and evolve globally. That for me, it's not about who can and can't participate. Benji Hart: It's not about, you have to be this or you're not allowed, you have to be this or you can't come. For me, it's evolved past that to: You need to understand the lineage that this comes out of and you need to ask yourself what you're doing for the folks in those lineages, because sex workers are still facing violence, because trans people are still facing violence, because our people are still getting locked up and our people are still getting killed by the police. And that's not just Black men, that's Black women, that's Black trans people, that's Black gender nonconforming people, that's everybody. And if you are not fighting for those communities, then you actually don't understand what vogue is. You actually don't understand the conditions under which vogue was created. And that's always going to limit your ability to participate, and that's always going to limit your ability to actually fully immerse yourself in the form. And if you're serious about the form, then you need to be serious about fighting for the people who created it. Kenrya: Right. I mean, that actually extends to another question that we were going to ask. We've talked a bit about white supremacy and you were just talking about how part of that conversation touched on who is consuming voguing. Can we talk about the ways that white supremacy shows up in that space? Benji Hart: Oh, it's a big question. Kind of hearkening back to this piece that I've been working on, World After This One, I think vogue is a great example of a Black art form, the ballroom is a great example of a Black space and a Black community that is complicated. That, yes, was created by Black trans and queer people for Black trans and queer people, and also has a long history of gender policing, a long history of celebrating gender conforming trans people and shaming trans people that don't conform, a long history of celebrating thin bodies, a long history of celebrating light skinned folks. Like any Black space, we bring our baggage and our trauma into it and it shows up in complicated ways. So for me, it's actually important to celebrate the radical history of the ballroom scene, and to also talk about: It's a complicated place, and it's not always a welcoming place, and it's not always an affirming place, and not everyone has had that experience in ballroom. Benji Hart: And that's actually okay because that's part of the history. That's part of understanding the complexity of the form and the people who made it. So I think just the ways that we as Black people perpetuate white supremacy is something to be real about, and something that shows up in ballroom all the time. But then certainly as the form has gone global, even somewhat recently in the last 10 years, there's scenes pretty much on every continent, which is beautiful. And some of those scenes are unrecognizable. I've seen some balls in Europe. I've seen some balls in Latin America, participated in some balls in different parts outside of the US. Benji Hart: And it's both really amazing to see the ways that people are taking it and making it their own, and also really heartbreaking and disturbing and in some cases, infuriating to see the ways that Blackness and Black people specifically are erased, and that people continuously... What's the word? Conceive of ballroom as a trans and queer art form and never say the word Black. And explain and justify their own participation as, "This is a trans and queer art form and I'm a trans and queer person," without asking, "What does it mean for me as a white trans or queer person to be participating in this Black art form? What does it mean for me as a brown trans or queer person to be participating in this Black art form?" Benji Hart: And again, not just, "Have I addressed my own anti-Blackness and my own racist thoughts and feelings about Black people before I step up into this Black tradition?" But, "What am I doing on behalf of Black people? How am I fighting and struggling alongside of, and on behalf of, Black people?" Is not a question I see very many people asking. And in fact, I've experienced people literally being upset when you assert that vogue and that ballroom is a Black art form. And so people's just complete resistance to even acknowledging that this is something that came from Black people, much less to then actually allow that to push them towards a Black liberatory lens, and a Black liberatory commitment, is very disheartening for me. Benji Hart: And I got to tell people all the time, taking stuff from Black people and erasing Black people's contributions is not radical. You're not doing nothing radical and you're not doing nothing new if that's your way of participating and showing up in this art form. That's what y'all been doing since who knows how long. That's how y'all have been treating Black people for centuries, is consuming our art without giving us real love, respect, and appreciation. And if that's what you're doing in 2021, A, I feel sorry for you. B, somebody needs to remind you that there's nothing radical about that. There's nothing de-colonial about that. There's nothing visionary about that. There's no decolonization without Black people, and there's no liberation, there's no revolution for trans and queer people included without Black people. Kenrya: Fucking tale as old as time. Benji Hart: Old as time. Played out. You're not even giving me a new challenge. This is the same old, same old. Erica: We asked you on the show because the story we read last week, “Masquerade,” follows the queer community during the Harlem Renaissance, and balls featured prominently. Now we know you're not a historian, but can you touch on briefly about the ties that bind ballroom scenes of the 1920s to today's ballroom culture? Benji Hart: I really appreciate that set up, because I am not a ballroom historian. I'm certainly not a historian about the balls at the turn of the century. But for me, what I love about acknowledging that there were balls happening a hundred years ago, and history shows us and tells us actually much earlier than that, going back to the 1800s, going back to... We can even talk about out how some of these traditions literally grow out of enslavement, how some of these practices literally grow out of enslavement. I think it's such an important reminder that Black trans and queer people have always existed, and have always been, not just a part of the community, but actually at the forefront of creating Black art, Black culture, and even defining what it is to be Black, that Black trans and queer people are not a footnote or an asterisk. Black trans and queer people have actually always been at the forefront of defining and imagining what it is to be Black. And in fact, creating some of the most important and some of the most memorable and central cultural contributions that the entire Black community relies on. Benji Hart: So yeah, the "faggot balls." That's what they were referred to in the local newspapers that we have documents of. The "faggot balls" of the twenties and thirties were these massive queer gatherings happening in Harlem at the height of the great migration, the height of the Harlem Renaissance, the height of Harlem as the Black Mecca for so many other parts of the country. So for me, that's just the most beautiful part about it. Black trans and queer people don't start existing in the nineties. Black trans and queer people don't start existing in the eighties. They don't start existing in the sixties. We have always, always, always been here, and the language has changed in the same ways that the language has changed for me over the course of my lifetime, over my exploration. Black trans and queer people in the 1800s, weren't referring to themselves as trans because academics hadn't invented that term yet, but were Black trans people doing their thing in the 1800s? Of course they were. Were Black trans people doing their thing under the conditions of chattel slavery? Of course they were. Benji Hart: And there's so many stories of that in ways that, for me, is very affirming, and a reminder that, again, we're actually returning. We are placing ourselves inside of a long lineage, not diverging from it. Erica: Yeah. So the characters in the book, they really relied on the community that was provided by ballroom to not only survive, but thrive. We'd love to talk about the ways that the ballroom culture currently provide this community for participants. Benji Hart: I'm actually not participating in ballroom currently, which doesn't mean I'm not still connected to my people, and loving and supporting my people, specifically the members of the house that I was in for many years here in Chicago. But I'm not walking balls currently. So just to be transparent about that, that I'm not an active participant in the scene right now. I still think ballroom has always been a way for people to find family, and we all need family, even those of us who have support from our bio fam, or have support from family in the traditional sense. Having trans and queer family is so necessary. And I think the ballroom provides safety, it's a way of claiming space in spaces and communities where it's not always safe to be trans. It's not always safe to be femme. It's not always safe to be queer. It's a way of carving out space. Benji Hart: And I would argue in like a very militant way, it's a way of carving out space and claiming space for Black trans and queer people. And I also think it provides safety just in terms of having people going through the same things as you, who can look out for you while you're doing difficult things, whether it's living on the street or doing sex work or all the kinds of things that have historically faced Black trans people, Black queer people, that it's a safety net of other people who know what you're going through, and that can provide material and physical support for you, as well as spiritual and cultural support, all of which are really crucial things. Kenrya: Yeah. Word. So in the book that we read, the protagonist's name Celine, and she really uncovers her relationship to femme sexuality and gets comfortable with both her attraction and with her gender expression while she's attending the balls back during the Harlem Renaissance. Can we talk about how voguing empowers the feminine? Benji Hart: I think, as we said, I started voguing when I was 16, and it was such a revolution for me in that moment, because I think one of the hardest things about coming out at as a 14-year-old in the place and the environment that I did was feeling like my Blackness and my queerness were diametrically opposed to one another, and that one couldn't exist with the other, that they were always going to be at odds. And often, in some ways to this day, feeling like sometimes you have to choose, "Am I going to be Black right now or am I going to be queer right now? "And for me, voguing was so revolutionary to, A, realized that Black queer people will have always existed. B, realize that Black queer people don't just exist. We have carved out these incredibly unique spaces for ourselves. We've imagined these incredibly unique cultural practices that don't look like anything else that anyone else has ever come up with, and that we've made these incredible cultural contributions that folks need to put some respect on our name. Benji Hart: But that third, or C, I can't remember which one I'm on, that for me, Blackness and femmeness are deeply tied. They're not in contradiction with one another. My femmeness is so much a part of my Blackness, and my Blackness is so much a part of my femmeness, that it actually doesn't make sense. Queer folks who want you to separate your femmenes from your Blackness, and Black folks who want you to separate your Blackness from your queerness or your transness. It's like, "Well, then you don't understand what you're even talking about," because those things are inseparable. The more femme I feel the more Black I feel, and vice versa. The more I invest in my femmeness, the more I am investing in my Blackness. The more I celebrate my Blackness, the more I am necessarily celebrating my femmeness. Benji Hart: Those two experiences are so aligned for me. And I think the way vogue makes that so material, and makes it manifest so physically on the floor that you can just see something that is so Black and so queer, and energy that is so Black and so femme coming out of someone's body. I just remember that feeling the first time I saw it of like, "Oh my gosh, you can be both." And they actually inform and reinforce and empower one another. They don't take away from each other. Kenrya: Right. What's your superpower? Benji Hart: What is my superpower? Dang. That's a really good question. I'm going to say that my superpower is using my words for liberation. I feel very strongly that words are sacred. And it's one of the reasons that, for me, one of the most treacherous things that someone can do is manipulate using words, or lie on you using words. Like when someone uses their words to manipulate me, it feels like such a desecration of such a sacred and powerful tool. That' the number one way for me to block you, the number one way for me to be like, "I do not fuck with this person. I will never talk to this person again." If I don't trust your words, I don't trust anything about you. I can't trust a single thing you say or do. And so for me, words are an incredibly sacred tool. And like any tool, they can be misused, they can be abused and they can do incredible damage. Benji Hart: We know how incredibly harmful... Words are such a simple concept, but they can do so much harm. They can do so much damage. And in the same phrase, at the same time, they can do so much healing, so much clarifying, so much resonance, so much connection, they have the potential to do so many incredible, powerful things. And I think my superpower is treating words as sacred, always doing my best to not abuse them and not use them to obfuscate or confuse or manipulate, but using them to clarify and to connect and to break open the bullshit. That's my superpower. Kenrya: Yes. I love it. Okay. What are you reading right now? Benji Hart: I'm actually rereading “The Warmth Of Other Suns,” which was first recommended to me by a family member. And it's just one of my favorite books, and it deals with some very heavy subject matter, but it... I majored in Black studies, and the first time I read “The Warmth Of Other Suns,” I was like, "I can't believe I didn't know half of this shit." There's so much info in that book that it's so incredibly crucial to understanding what it means to be a Black person in the United States, that I was gagged at how much of it was new information to me when I read it. And I was probably like 27 or 28. So I go back and reread it periodically because it's so packed with such incredibly important history that I always find new things in it. But I also just love the way the author really makes you invested in the lives of these Black people from a century ago, coming up from the South and traveling north. Benji Hart: And I just think it illuminates so much about what it means to be a Black person in this country in a way that feels very unique to the stories in that book, but also the way the author tells them. And yeah, I find so much inspiration from the lived experience of folks who went through the Great Migration. I think it's such a crucial juncture in Black history that gets so little attention. And I just want us thought to talk more about the Great Migration. So much of our understanding of Blackness in this country is rooted in enslavement. And Lord knows that's an important... Benji Hart: It would be wrong to talk about being Black in this country without talking about slavery, but just all these other things, frankly, that Black people have been through, that slavery wasn't the first or the last violence that we faced in this country. But that also it wasn't the first or the last time that Black people resisted. It wasn't the first or the last time that Black people en mass imagined something better for themselves and against all odds were actually able to shape it and manifest it. And I just find so much inspiration in those stories. Erica: Yeah. I was going to say, Isabel Wilkerson presents it all so beautifully. I listened to the audio book while I was on vacation and just loved it. Loved it, loved it. Okay. So what's turning you on today? Benji Hart: It's a good question. I saw that question on the docket and I was like, "Oh, what is going to be my answer to that question?" Because I'm going to be real to say, that's not exactly the mind frame I'm in today, this week, this season, let me just be real. But let me get into it. Let me get into it, and give you a real response. I think what is turning me on today... Benji Hart: I'm just going to give you my answer because if I think about it too hard, it's probably going to make even less sense, but I'm just going to try and say what's coming up. But I feel like I'm in a dry season, which is not just a dry season in terms of sex, though I think you could argue it is that. But also just romance prospects, sort of feeling sensual, feeling excited, feeling desirous, feeling both desired and desiring, I feel like I don't have a lot of that energy in my world right now. And so it's hard to tap into, "Yeah, what's turning you on today?" Because I feel like I'm having a hard time tapping into that energy in general in my life in this moment, which I think is okay. I think it's okay to acknowledge that we go through seasons. Benji Hart: But I'm just in a season where I'm not feeling that energy intensely. But when you ask the question, I think what comes up for me is feeling turned on about being where I'm supposed to be. I actually feel really solid and grounded and rooted in that I'm where I need to be, and I'm doing what I need to do. And that, in this moment, isn't bringing desire and desirous-ness, and sensuality and sexuality into my immediate fear in that way. But for me, it's like a practice of rooting myself in myself and rooting myself in my sense of self, and knowing that the only type of desire that I want is desire for me as I am. And the type of desire that I deserve is the type of desire that I believe I'm calling to myself by the actions that I'm taking in this moment. Benji Hart: So it's like planting seeds. It's like saying prayers. It's like putting out energy for what you know you deserve and what you know you're worth, and what you know is actually the only thing you can accept, that you can have nothing less than that, actually. I feel turned on by that. I feel turned on by like, "I'm where I'm supposed to be, and I know that what I deserve is coming towards me because I'm on my shit, and I'm doing what I am supposed to be doing." And the right energy and the right connections and the right feelings, even, will find me when the season changes. Kenrya: That's powerful as hell. And it's a full moon. So you just manifested all of that. Benji Hart: That's right. Thank you. Yes. And thank you for allowing me to manifest on this full moon. Sometimes we be forgetting. I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm supposed to be manifesting right now." So thank you. Thank you for that. Erica: Yeah. Check that off your list. Okay. So, sometimes we like to ask a few random questions. Benji Hart: I love it. Erica: Tell us a very mundane fact about you. Benji Hart: A very mundane fact about me. I hate folding clothes. Kenrya: Same. Benji Hart: I fucking hate folding clothes. My laundry is done when the clothes come out of the dryer. Erica: That's it. Yeah. Benji Hart: That's it, the end of the chore for me. And I'm not proud of that. You know what I'm saying? That's not me being on my grown shit, but that's definitely me being on my honest shit. You know what I'm saying? I wash the clothes. The clothes are clean. Erica: They're clean. Benji Hart: They're dry. And that's all you going to get from me. Erica: And now you just go through the basket. Benji Hart: You know what I'm saying? Exactly. Kenrya: We're laughing so hard because Erica literally just had to come up here and help me and fold clothes. So my disability limits my energy. And so I ain't always got it. But even before then, to be clear, them clothes piled up. But it's even worse now. Benji Hart: That's so real. Kenrya: So she came and sat and helped me fold. Benji Hart: That's beautiful. That's actually really beautiful for so many reasons. My roommate be peeking in my room being like, "Do you want me to help you fold your clothes?" And it's actually one of the most... Because my space feels so much better when my clothes are actually folded and put away. I know I'm going to feel good once it's done. But I just really cannot- Erica: And to be done. Benji Hart: And it's definitely been worse during the pandemic. Something about the pandemic has made it 10 times harder, and it was already hard. So I know that's love. I know that's love. Because when my roommate does it for me, I'm like, "Oh thank you. This is such a special gift actually." Erica: Oh, okay. So if there were Olympics for regular ass activities, what would you go gold in? Benji Hart: If there were Olympics for regular ass activities, I would go gold in... And Black people always think that this is a dangerous thing to say. And I say it when I say it. I would go gold in mac and cheese. Erica: I knew it was going to either be mac and cheese or potato salad. Kenrya: Oh, Benji's cocky. Benji Hart: I make gold medal mac and cheese. And every time I say it, somebody going to say, "Now you hope you know..." I'm like, "Yeah, I know. I said what I said. This is gold, five-star mac and cheese over here. Let's go toe to toe." Erica: Yes. Okay. Kenrya: Wait, Erica, what would you gold in? Erica: Cleaning. House cleaning. Cleaning my house. Benji Hart: Oh, I would never say that. I give you so much respect. Erica: Making the bed, doing dishes, all that shit. Kenrya: I've always been a person that makes my bed right before I get in it. That's just because I don't like my sheets to be messed up when I... First of all, there are studies that say that that's actually healthier because all the sweat dries up and so bacteria can't proliferate in your sheets. Erica: Well, so what I do is I make my bed, especially because I've been and sick and sweating. So I make my bed in a very particular way when I've been sweating. Yeah, you got to fold... You going to walk in my bedroom and it's going to look nice, no matter what's going on. Kenrya: No. I straighten my shit before I get in the bed. Erica: What about you? Benji Hart: I love this question. Kenrya: Yeah, it's a great question. Writing interview questions. It's all I fucking do. Erica: No bitch. Giving advice. Giving advice. Kenrya give the best advice. Kenrya: Thank you. Erica: She gives good advice, but she asks you the question that you need to think about in order to... Kenrya: [crosstalk 01:00:46] Erica: Yeah. So, yeah. Kenrya: I'll take that. I receive it. I appreciate you. Erica: Best friending. You'd go gold in best friending. Benji Hart: I love it. Kenrya: I feel so loved. Benji Hart: My good friend, Kemi Alabi, who y'all should definitely have on this show, is a Black African American and Nigerian nonbinary poet. And their gold medal, I'm just going share their gold medal skill. They are so good at helping other people realize what they're trying to do with a piece of work. And it's exactly like what you had said, that they just know the exact right question to ask you to help you answer what something is trying to do. They just know so quickly and concisely a pointed question to ask you, that then for you totally clarifies like, "Oh, this is what this poem is trying to do," or, "This is where this piece is trying to go." And I've just never met another artist with that skill that they can actually help other people figure out what they are trying to do with the piece that they're making. Erica: Yeah that's dope. Benji Hart: And it's just such a special superpower. Kenrya: Wow. Word. So what's next for you? I know you said you think you're nearing completion on World After This One. Is that what's coming up next? Or what else you got going on in the works? Benji Hart: Knock on wood, that is definitely... It's been a labor of love and it's also been in the incubator for a long time. So I actually am excited to share it with more people, and more Black people, especially. And so we'll see what happens in 2022, but I'm optimistic about some of the prospects. So stay posted. Kenrya: Yes. And the best way for folks to stay posted is to one go to your site, which is BenjiHart.com. That's B E N J I H A R T dot com. And then can you tell folks where else they can find you online? Benji Hart: Yes. Subscribe to the newsletter on my website and you'll get a monthly update on everything that's going on and links to things and all of that. So that's the best way to stay updated on sort of my work life, my freelance life. But you can also hit me up on Twitter at R A D F A G G, RadFagg, and on Instagram at BenjiFemini, B E N J I F E M I N I. Kenrya: Are you a Gemini? Erica: Are you a Gemini? Benji Hart: I am a very proud Gemini. Erica: Yes. What's your birthday? Benji Hart: May 26th. Kenrya: Isn't that- Erica: I'm May 27. Benji Hart: May Geminis. This is a Gemini space, so we can talk about things internally that we can't talk about externally, because the Geminis in general get there's... Erica: We get it bad. Benji Hart: I tell people anti-Gemininess and anti-Blackness are linked. Erica: It is. It is. Benji Hart: It's systemic. But since we're not in mixed company right now, we can keep it real. The May Geminis are more turned down than the June Geminis. I do feel like- Erica: Oh, June Geminis are- Kenrya: My child is a June Gemini. Benji Hart: Are they chaotic? Kenrya: Yes. In the best way, but yes. Erica: Her daughter is fucking chaos in a tiny person. As I was helping them fold clothes, Kenrya has this bin of fancy clothes. So I pull out this dress and it's silver, and it's got all this fucking tulle and like a rainbow. And I said, "Oh, this was in a fancy dress pile." She said, "No, that's an everyday dress." I said, "See, that fucking chaotic ass June Gemini energy." Benji Hart: June Gemini energy. Big. I love it. Kenrya: Yeah. Yeah. I am non-Gemini. I am an Aries. Erica: And I say I don't ever have to hold a grudge because Kenrya's got them all. Kenrya: I got you. All day. Benji Hart: I got you. And that's a good Judy. That's very important best friend energy. Erica: Exactly. Benji Hart: I see it. I do see it. Erica: Yep. She be like, "Fuck that bitch." Kenrya: You don't even got to tell me why. Fuck that bitch, and it's fuck that bitch forever, until you tell me otherwise. Erica: Not at all. And it still take her a while to warm back up. Kenrya: But I get there. I'm loyal. Erica: Yeah. You are. [crosstalk 01:05:35], and I appreciate it. Benji Hart: I give you the chance to redeem yourself, but I'm loyal. So it's going to take extra work with me. That's the good Judy. That's a good Judy. Kenrya: Yo, I had so much fun. Erica: You're the best. Benji Hart: I really did too. Thank y'all so much for including me. And thank y'all so much for welcoming me into your space. I have loved being here. Erica: Okay. So when you're in DC or I'm in Chicago. Benji Hart: We're ki-ing. We are ki-ing. Erica: But I also need some macaroni and cheese. Benji Hart: Easy peasy lemon squeezey. I got you. I'll throw down. I'll go down in DC. I'll be like, "Where you at? Let's go to the grocery store. Let's do it." Kenrya: I need you to know that we have had guests in our home after having these conversations and that we are so serious. Benji Hart: Oh, I would love to. A, I would love to key in real life because y'all are amazing. And B, I will bring the mac and cheese. No joke. Absolutely. Absolutely. Erica: I love it. That's all. That's all. Kenrya: Well, thank all of y'all. Erica: I'll fry some chicken. Benji Hart: Sounds great. Kenrya: I'm sorry. I know that y'all are all jealous because none of y'all are going to- Erica: Kenrya's vegan. Kenrya: Yeah. I'm not going to be eating any of that food, but that's fine. There will be other things for me to eat. I will contribute. Erica: That's fine. Kenrya: None of all are going to get any, but that is okay because y'all got to enjoy this conversation. Thank y'all for joining us this week. And that's it. We'll be back next week. Y'all take care. Benji Hart: Thank y'all. [theme music] Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode. Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions. Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen. Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.
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Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In Episode 2.5 of The Turn On, we talk to “Push the Button” author Feminista Jones about BDSM, labels and building community. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. Kenrya: So today, we're talking to Philadelphia based social worker, feminist writer, public speaker, and community activist Feminista Jones. Feminista is an award-winning blogger and author of Push the Button, which we're reading from today, a poetry collection called "The Secret of Sugar Water," and the newly released "Reclaiming Our Space: How Black Feminists Are Changing The World From The Tweets To The Streets." Feminista's work centers Black American culture, critical race theory, intersectionality, and women's health and wellbeing. Kenrya: Hey, Feminista. Feminista: Hello. Thank you for having me. Kenrya: Thanks for coming on. We're excited to talk to you. I feel like we've been following you and like sending each other stuff that you've tweeted for years. Feminista: That's dope. Kenrya: It's cool to have you on. Erica: Yeah, you're definitely my home girl in my head. So thank you for- Feminista: Well, now I'm home girl on the mic. Kenrya: Yay. Erica: Thank you so much. Kenrya: So, first can you tell us what are your preferred pronouns? Feminista: She and her. Kenrya: Awesome. Thank you. Feminista: And yours? Kenrya: I'm she and her. Erica? Erica: I'm she and her but I also appreciate all around bad bitch, so if that could be somehow incorporated. Kenrya: Got it. Feminista: I'm going to try my best. Kenrya: Okay. I just read that long, like yes, bad bitch bio, but in one sentence, what do you think of what you do, like if you could sum it all up in one succinct sentence, what is it? Feminista: I do bad bitch things. Kenrya: Yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes. Feminista: You know what, honestly I think at this point in my life I just am somebody who is trying to live out her dreams and help people along the way, if that makes sense. Kenrya: It does make sense. Feminista: I've had a lot of questions lately about "Is this what you've always wanted to do?" And for as long as I can remember yes, I've wanted to be a writer and I've also wanted to help people and this is like since I was like six years old, seven years old, and I've been lucky enough or committed enough to be able to do both and be successful at both. So, I think where I am right now, having recently turned 40, I am enjoying the fruits of my labor, being able to do both of those things. Kenrya: Word. That's what's up. So okay, you're based in Philly now, where are you from originally? Feminista: I am from New York City, born and raised. I was born in Queens, my mom and I, we moved around a lot when we were in Queens, but I went to public school there for elementary school and then we moved to The Bronx, and I really tell people that The Bronx really made me who I am. Queens was kind of an early introduction to things, particularly on the hip hop side because I always loved all the Queens artists from hip hop, but The Bronx really made me who I am and I lived most of my life in The Bronx. So everything from there, every time, whether I went away to school or college, every time I came back, it was always living somewhere in The Bronx. So I've spent the majority of my life in The Bronx and I definitely am a Bronx girl. Kenrya: Word. Would you ever go back, like to live for real? Feminista: I don't want to ever say never but that is not what I have. Living in New York City is no longer my ministry. Erica: I was just about to say "not your ministry." Feminista: No, it is ... I had this, and people ask me, why did I leave? And I said I feel like I have given New York all that I can and I have gotten from New York all I can get from it. A lot of that is under the context of being a social worker. I spend pretty much all my career there being a social worker in New York City and in a city that big there's all these different organizations, they're all kind of doing the same work. You're like just kind of drifting around but in Philadelphia where there are a lot of pressing issues, there's the opportunity to kind of be a big fish in a small pond and I felt that I could take a lot of what I had learned as a social worker in New York and bring that to Philadelphia and possibly help work on some of the issues going here. Kenrya: Word. What made you choose Philly in particular? Feminista: Well, I went to undergrad here. I went to he University of Pennsylvania for an undergraduate, and when I was here I had done some volunteering in west and north Philly and learned a lot about he issues, and I had friends here that were still here, I dated someone here for a few years, so I've always been closely connected with Philadelphia and so when I was thinking about where I wanted to move, thinking about proximity to my son who's still in New York City, Philadelphia really topped the list, cost of living is lower, fewer people. But it's a Black city. A lot of people don't talk about Philadelphia in those terms. They always talk about Washington, D.C. is chocolate city but Philly is like 43% Black right now, I think, and we have the highest Black Muslim population, there's so much about this city that is just quintessentially Black and I just love that. It's really hard for me to be in spaces where I'm one of a few or the only one. That really destroys my spirit. It's funny, funny story, I've been on tour for a few months for the book and I've gone to ... and also my speaking tour, and and I've gone to some really interesting places, and I remember going to Terre Haute, Indiana, to speak at Indiana State, and for the first 24 hours I was there I didn't see a single other Black person. Kenrya: Nope. Feminista: And I was talking with students and professors there, I was like how do you do it? And they're like, "Look, you've got to find your tribe but it's still really taxing." I was like I just can't do that. I can't go a whole day and not see Black people. That's not the life I want. Erica: And I notice it so much more. I'm originally from St. Louis, Missouri, and moved to D.C. and I've been here since college. And now I'm so ... And I don't think I was as aware of being in such white spaces until you kind of get home and you breathe and you see ... you're so used to seeing so many Black people that you're so much more aware of the absence of them when you're not around them. Feminista: I was just in St. Louis two weekends ago for a wedding and I had been there, like a few weeks before that, for a speaking engagement. I like St. Louis, I like the people there. The Black folks there were real cool. I really appreciated them. Erica: It was a good place to grow up but I definitely had to leave and I love my family but I needed a little bit of space. Feminista: I understand, I understand. I can see that. Yeah. But people were really nice to me there and I say that because that doesn't always happen. So I appreciate St. Louis. Erica: Oh wow, wow. I'm glad they put their best foot forward for you. Kenrya: I wonder how being in the city, living in a place that is very intentionally Black, like how much being in that space feeds your work? Feminista: It feeds it so much. When I first moved here I worked for a university doing anti-poverty policy work and pretty much 99% of the people I worked with were Black, right? So we have the highest poverty rate in the country of any large city, and so it's a serious issue here. So Blackness and poverty are so linked up here, it's kind of ridiculous. Not to say that there isn't a Black middle class or upper class but it's obviously racialized here in many ways. So that definitely informs a lot of my work and particularly with activism and things that I do around the city still, working with women and things like that, that Blackness is always present. Then as I'm connecting with different people and I'm sure we'll talk about more kink stuff but I've been able to find a very strong kink community here that is all Black people, and that's been really, really helpful, and finding those kind of even underground alternative kind of communities has been really great. So it's given me a lot of inspiration to finish the sequel to "Push the Button," which I've been working on. Erica: Oh. Kenrya: Oh good, we were definitely going to ask you about that. Feminista: No, it's actually been really dope. Hacking away, I cut my nails down, I was like I've got some writing to do. I was like, but definitely feeding in from that ... You know what it is? It's a comfort level. I think when I was in New York City I wasn't comfortable anymore. I was struggling. I was like I shouldn't be struggling. Making as much money as I was making I shouldn't have been struggling, like living paycheck to paycheck. Kenrya: It's a hard city. Feminista: I shouldn't have had all the mental health issues and struggles that I have. Not to say that I haven't had them here but in New York it was just a whole different level and then having to go outside and be around so many people all the time, it was just so draining. How do you go home and then be creative and be productive when you're just so drained? So Philadelphia here ... And then you know, Black folks here are nice. So you walk down the street, Sisters will randomly be like, "Oh girl, I love your skirt. Oh, I love those earrings. Oh, I love that hair." And they'll start a conversation like it's kind of like what people say about the South, you know how that is, but here in Philly that's just how people are, and when they say like brotherly love and sisterly affection, that comes from the Black people here. So I've definitely felt more comfortable, I settled in, I got a house, like I love my home. So definitely feeling it. Kenrya: Yes, that's dope. Erica: So, we've been ... I've been following you, like I said, you were my home girl in my mind, so I've heard you talk on other shows about your Dominant/submissive relationships, and so my question to you is how did you realize that one of the hats you'd come to wear was that of a submissive? Like how did that come about? Because I think we all have a bit of that in us but how did you realize this is who I am and what I want to do? Feminista: Well, it's a funny story because I no longer identify that way because I divested of the patriarchal bullshit, but anyway. Erica: Well! Kenrya: Surprise! Feminista: There was another show I was talking about that. Listen, I've been in this lifestyle, this kink and BDSM lifestyle for 21 years now. Evolution is going to happen, growth is going to happen. I've always identified as a switch, to be quite honest because I- Kenrya: Can you tell our listeners who don't know? Feminista: Oh, sure. A switch is somebody who can function as a submissive type and can also function as a dominant type. For me, it fell along gender lines. Like, I would be dominant with women and I would be submissive with men. And I really had to critique that. Like, as a feminist, I could come up theoretically with all the ways in which it was fine to be a submissive and here's where ... You know, I've written about it, it's not an issue, and I don't have an issue with it, trust me, but what I had to do was really challenge myself and say, "Are you really submissive or do you just engage certain men this way?" Because when I would be out and about in the community I wouldn't be ... I wouldn't bow my head to any of them other dudes, like no, I'm not doing nothing you say, I ain't going to call you no sir, nothing. I was just like yo ... Then it took a partner being like, "You don't have a submissive bone in your body." We said that, it was during an argument. I was like, "Well, that's actually true," and I started having to deconstruct that. Then what I realized ... And this is something that I actually now do workshops and stuff about, is I had to reconcile enjoying being a bottom for more of the physical things, like I identify as a sadomasochist so I do enjoy receiving pain, but that didn't make me submissive. And that's challenging a lot of the norms and the standards that we have in our community. Like, we equate a bottom with a submissive. And it's like, no, I actually just like the way these things feel and I like having someone else kind of inflict that on me or what have you. There's certain scenarios where I like to be choked, does that mean I'm a submissive? No. It means I like being choked. If I want a man to pay for things, does that make me a submissive? No. It means I like having men pay for shit. So I had to challenge a lot of what I already believed, and I was like no, you know what, there's part of me that with a particular partner I may curl up like a little girl and do whatever, but that is not my standard or my general way of being. I am actually quite dominant and I would limit it only to women but then I realized, no, I can be dominant with men too and not just in the bed. I found that outside of the bed is when I really got the enjoyment of dominating men. And so I allowed myself to evolve over the years and fully embrace the fact that I identify as a Dom who happens to be a sadomasochist. Kenrya: Wow. Feminista: Yeah. So after 21 years, that's where I am right now. Erica: So, just to dig a little deeper into that piece, did you deal with a ... I mean, when you thought for so long, I am this type of person, and then slowly come to realize no, that isn't who I am anymore, or who I ever was, how did you ... what was your thinking, what was your thoughts behind it? Did you feel like you were having some sort of crisis or ... I don't want to say crisis but how did you handle that? Feminista: Honestly, I think my biggest concern, because I am so well known, because I'm well known in the community and also out, it's like how will people receive this? Like, will they think that I was a fraud or they think I was whatever, and that's why I'm very delicate about how I explain this process and for those who are maybe newer to this lifestyle or newer to kink, letting people know you have permission to change. Like, you may identify one way now and then a few months from now you're like you know what, that doesn't really work for me, and it's okay. Don't let anyone pigeon hole you. So for me, I think that was probably the biggest concern because people look up to me, and then I wrote this book but then I realized when I started writing the sequel, I started writing the sequel three and a half years ago, believe it or not, and I wanted my primary character to be a Dom, a woman Dom. And I said, "I'm going to explore this." And I actually think through writing that I was like, you know you're writing yourself, right? And I'm like, but how am I writing myself? So it wasn't crisis, it was more like just let the spirit move you- Kenrya: Get yourself that space, yeah. Feminista: Get yourself that space, go with what feels good and what feels right, and I had fallen back from the community a bit, I was in a rather tumultuous relationship, and when I ended that I said, you know what? I need to reconnect with my people but I'm going to do it in the most authentic way. So people who had known me in my previous form, they accepted and they have embraced it because again, I've always identified as a switch. So there's always been that there, it's just now I fully embrace it and you'll see more of that with me. Kenrya: That's awesome. Feminista: But if you're the right person then you might bring that other part out a little bit, you never know. I'm just open to whatever feels good. Are we fucking right? Is it good? Who cares! Kenrya: That actually makes me think more broadly just about your career in general, from addressing street harassments, writing erotica to speaking at colleges and advocating women's health, I feel like you do a really good job of being your whole self in public and reflecting all of those pieces of yourself in your work. I'm wondering what the biggest challenges that you face in making space for all the things that you are and all the things that you do. Feminista: Honestly I think the biggest challenge has been the sex part, because that's how I came on the scene, right? That's how people knew me, from my early, early days, back 2010, 2011, and I really was trying to make this mark as a sex positive Black feminist. And I did. And that's what a lot of people came to know me for. And then I was like, but I do have all these other things that are really important to me too, and since now I have this platform let me start talking about these things too, and I started bringing more of my daily life as a social worker, as an activist online. I was like, well, I also do this stuff too people, and realizing that social media specifically could be a valuable tool to help me in my day-to-day life. So I was like, I got to bring all of this. And I fell back a bit from the sex stuff as much because I was having my own personal kind of revolution. There's a lot of things ... Not a lot, but there are some things that I wrote or said about six, seven years ago that I wouldn't agree with right now when it comes to feminism and sex and things like that. I talk about, in the book a bit, "Reclaiming Our Space," how I felt like it was my job to get more men to approve of feminism or to support it and I felt like sex would be the way to reach them. And it was very effective, I'm telling you, to this day I have just as many male fans and supporters as I have women. And in many things, the men support more than women. So it worked. But then I was like why am I doing that? Why do I care about their feelings like that? Like either you're down with feminism, either you believe that we are equal or you don't. I shouldn't have to sugar coat things, I shouldn't have to spoon-feed it to you, I shouldn't have to make it appealing. And so part of why I fell back from the sex stuff was because I was like I don't want that to be the only reason you believe that women are valuable. But I didn't fall back completely, it was just kind of like ... but the more public I became, things like that, I was just kind of like, this is risky. It is risky because now I'm out and about and sometimes when you talk about sex people feel entitled to you, you know what I mean? So that was a big thing and anybody listening, I feel like I've never explained this before, so you guys are the first to hear this but I started becoming concerned about my own safety because if I would look at my DMs, if I would look at the emails, all the unsolicited dick pics, all the things, I was just like, this is not what I want for me. And here I am posting where I'm going to be in these different spaces, the last thing I need is somebody who is infatuated with me or has been fantasizing about me to show up and we have a problem. So, that's another reason and one of the major reasons why I fell back from that. But then in the last couple of years I was like, "yeah, man, I'll shoot you." I'm going to do me, and this is important to me. When we think about things like what's happening with abortion right now, all of that is related to sex and sexuality. So I feel like ... Especially because I retired from social work last year, I said you know what? This is the arena I need to get back into. I need to get back into talking about sex and sex positivity. I need to get back into talking about kink and BDSM, I need to get back into talking about sexual liberation because it is so relevant to what is going on right now in our country and across the world and I feel like I have a strong enough voice for that. So I've been doing more of that lately and it's been good, it's been feeling good. So I think it all connects. When you are a queer Black feminist woman, it's hard to divest any part of who you are. Kenrya: Right. That's one of the things we talk about on this show, it's never just sex, right? Everything is sex and, race and, all of these things are interconnected. Feminista: Yes. Kenrya: You can't leave any of them behind because they literally are you. Feminista: It's sex and race, sex and gender, sex and class, sex and orientation, sex and religion, all of it is so intertwined, we can't divest. Here's the thing, if we're talking about liberation, like as a theory or a practice, we have to talk about bodily liberation. If your bodies are still in these kinds of theoretical chains, one of the biggest ones being related to sex, we're not getting any other type of liberation. You know what I'm saying? So, I feel like I have a strong enough voice in this particular space, especially with SESTA and FOSTA stuff happening, like nah man. I think that renewed my vigors, too, like when they started cracking down, when they started cracking down and like you can't put nipples on Instagram and everything got to be family friendly and all the stuff like that, the porn folks in porn and sex workers are getting locked up and in trouble and all kind of ... I was like nah, we got to do something about this. Erica: Got to come back out. Feminista: Got to come back out. Erica: So you talked about how your sexual self evolved over the past 20 plus years. As a mom and mentor, what do you think is the most important thing you want to instill in young Black people that are still trying to figure out their sexual selves and what that looks like? Feminista: You know, it's funny because I feel the real work starts with their parents and I feel like we need to really get to young people, as young as five years old, maybe even four to really kind of educate them about sex and sexuality. My ex-husband was an adolescent health educator and he developed age-appropriate stuff. They were talking to kindergartners about this kind of stuff and it was working, it was making sense. We have to get in early because a lot of times parents will pass on their own misguided notions about things and then we've got a whole other generation that's messed up. But I want young people to know that freedom, like personal freedom is about being able to enthusiastically say yes and having your no be respected. I think that that's a fundamental lesson that, as a parent, I have worked on with my son. Let me tell you something, I tell parents because I do some parenting writing too, I've told parents, "Listen, when your child comes and asks you for a cookie and you say no, and he's like, 'Please, please, please,' and you're like 'No,' and then they're like, 'Oh, I hate you,' and they start screaming and then you give them the cookie, you just taught them about coercion. You've just taught them that all they have to do is push a little harder and they'll get what they want." A lot of parents are just like, "Wow, I hadn't thought about that." Yeah, that's where it starts, don't even have to talk about sex. You just have to talk about boundaries, autonomy, and respect for other people. Young people have to know that they can explore things and feel free to, while at the same time understanding that it's important to talk to an adult who can give you context. That was an issue with my kid when he first discovered porn, right? He was like seven. I was like, so this is a no. But here's why, here's why. It's like Mommy does not think that this is appropriate for you to look at right now. Not that porn is bad- Kenrya: Not this is dirty, not that you're bad for watching, yeah. Feminista: I just don't think that this is appropriate for you to watch right now. Then it happened again a few years later and I was a little more stern, I said, "We talked about this. I do not want you watching this and getting your ideas about sex from this. If you want to talk about sex, talk to me and Daddy, we'll give you some more information." And I think he understood that. I mean, he's 12 now, like I got my first vibrator when I was 14, look I'm not going to hold my kid to some ridiculous standard, but we've raised him to know that if he has any questions he can come to us. Feminista: We've also raised him very open. I've never once been like, "Is there a girl you like?" I've always asked, "Is there someone you like? Do you have a crush on anyone?" So a couple of weeks ago we were walking and he said, "Mom, you know, I've just got to tell you something." I was like, "What?" He was like, "I think I know that I'm straight." I was like, "Damn." I was like, "Well what does that mean to you?" He's like, "I like girls." And I was like okay, well that's fine. But he's like, "Not that being gay is bad, I just don't like boys." And it was a conversation. I didn't have to pry or anything. Then he tells me that he likes this Puerto Rican girl and a white girl, and then I was like, "Okay, listen." Kenrya: Let's have a conversation. Feminista: "Let's have a conversation right here." I wasn't mad about anything else, I was just like ... I was like ... But do you know what it is? All his closest friends are Black girls. And the way he explains it is he's like, I don't know what's going on with these guys' heads, but girls are just smarter, and I prefer to have them as friends. Kenrya: Where is the lie? Feminista: So I was like, I feel you bro, like I get it. So I think that's something for him. I don't know if the girls that he likes being not Black kind of helps him juxtapose things, I don't know. But he does have love for Black girls and always has, so I'm not like mad or anything. So, yeah, we talk about it, I talk about it, we talk about it all the time, I bring it up, I let him know, "You can talk to me about anything," his sister, I had talked about this publicly, his older sister had a baby as a teenager and she was only 14, and she's 16 now, and so talking to him about that, like what does that mean? Like your "Sister was having sex and she got pregnant and she had a baby very young." He's like, "I ain't doing that." And I was like okay, all right. But it's important to have those conversations. Kenrya: Yeah. And to have them early. Awesome. Feminista: Have them early. Kenrya: So let's talk a bit about Push the Button. Feminista: Yes, let's talk. Kenrya: So we were definitely in from the opening line, "I want to see you." I'm wondering where the ... I mean so obviously we talked a bit about how the idea of it, the Dom/sub relationship at the core of it came from where you were at that part of your life, but where did the inspiration for this particular story come from? Feminista: So the book is almost five years old, and I am blessed to say I get my little Amazon royalties every month, people are still buying it, I'm very happy about that. It came out around the time that 50 Shades of Gray had come out, and that garbage really infuriated me. It infuriated me. Kenrya: So awful. Feminista: It was terrible, it was poorly written, it was not about BDSM, it was about abuse, and in the community we were all just what the fuck is this? And I think for me I have this theory, and a lot of people may not agree, but I feel like if you're a good writer you can write anything. I said to myself, you know what, I can do better than this and I can represent for our community and I can represent for Black people in our community because so much of BDSM erotica is just so white. So I said I'll write a short story. My Aries brain, I can go for a short story, anything beyond that ... Kenrya: Yes, Aries. Feminista: Yes. I'll be like, all right man, you've got 2000 words, there you go. So I wrote a blog and that was supposed to be it, so chapter one was supposed to be it, and then people were reading it and I got ... the biggest question I got was, "So what happens next?" I was like, "There is no next." I was like, "That's it, what are you talking about?" I just wanted to prove that a story about BDSM with black people could be written better than that 50 Shades crap. But popular demand, the fans were clamoring and so I started releasing a new chapter every holiday. So it got to the point where people would hit me up, they'd be like, "Yo, July 4th is two weeks, we getting another chapter? Hey, it's Easter, are we getting a chapter, because Easter's coming up. It's National Hotdog Day. Asian Pacific Month, what are we getting here?" It was really funny, but I would, and it held me accountable, I got to thank the fans because Aries in and out, we are over stuff really quick but the fans held me accountable and I just kept writing and developing these characters and developing this story until I got to all but the last chapter and by then my following had almost tripled and I took it off the blog. I said I'm going to make this a book. Why not, right? And I waited a year, intentionally, to build it up and then by then more than half of my followers had never heard of Push the Button. They'd never seen, they went to my blog, it wasn't there, they'd never heard of it. So when I added the final chapter and released it as a book, the old fans were just like, "Yes, this is it! We love it, "Oh my god, I can't believe you did this, what is going on?" It was really great to see because what was happening was with every chapter I started having people download it so I could track it and I was there, I would have like 2,800, 3,000 downloads in the first [inaudible]. Erica: Wow. Kenrya: Wow. Feminista: Oh dropping it. So I knew there was a fan base there, and I was like, okay, this is going to do numbers. So when I created it, originally it was going to be just an ebook, but I said no, I made a paperback. The version that's out now that people can buy is actually the fourth version, I had to do a lot of editing. I had never done anything like this before, I had never self-published and everything like that. Kenrya: That's impressive. Feminista: Thank you. So I went back and I did a lot of editing, I actually changed some sentences and fixed the syntax, a lot of spelling and grammar things and stuff like that, but I cleaned it up. So what you have now is the fourth version and people just loved it. I was being asked to come places to talk about it, to speak about it, and that really helped launched my speaking career. First I was just kind of in kink spaces, but I was recording myself and putting it on YouTube or online and more people were like, "Oh, can you come talk about this? Can you come talk about ..." And it grew from there. The best thing was I was at Weekend Reunion, and for people that don't know what Weekend Reunion is, it was an annual gathering of people of color in the lifestyle and they asked me to come and sell the book there and I had an elder in the community come up and she was just like, "Thank you so much for this, I've never seen us represented this way. Really appreciate it." That meant a lot to me because as they say, representation matters. Right? You want to see yourself in media, whether it's literature or film, TV, and so I felt like I'd done something special for the community and it went from there. This book has sold thousands and thousands and thousands of copies around the world and it's been a blessing and it's great and I love it and I'm halfway through the sequel. Erica: So, do you have any tips or resources for our listeners that want to explore kink? I think that often we tend ... If you're not familiar, you tend to think that kink is that white people shit but somebody chokes you out during sex and you're like, "Can I have some more?" Feminista: Yeah. That's the thing that I guess gets me all the time because people of color, we are very much obviously involved in this. We have huge communities across the world, especially in the United States, we have gatherings, we have all kind of conferences, I'm actually speaking at a conference called the Journey Con this August in Atlanta. We are there, but I think there's also that part of us that likes being underground a bit, and likes being in the margins because it still feels freer. The more mainstream something becomes, the more prying eyes you have and peering eyes, and so when the 50 Shades thing came, all the white mommy bloggers were just like, "Oh my god, I want to be spanked." And I was like, "You don't want me to spank you, child. I will send you right back to Mayberry and you'll never think about this again." You know? So there was an explosion of our community around that, that was trickled off a bit. I would say folks could go to fetlife.com, F-E-T-L-I-F-E.com, FetLife is like Facebook for kinksters, you can create a profile, you can talk about what you're looking for, tell a little bit about yourself, what you're into, but there's also an events page so you can find events that are happening near you, everything from workshops to demonstrations to munches, what we call munches, and a munch is when you get together with other people in the lifestyle but you're not doing anything kinky, you're just having dinner or lunch or drinks or something, just to get to know people. You can go to conferences, you can go to play parties, they list parties at the dungeons. For people that don't know what a dungeon is, it's where you go and there's all kinds of apparatuses around and people are engaging in their kink. FetLife I think is a really valuable resource, it can be a mess because there's always going to be some white dude who's going to come be like, "I just want you to sit on my face, I worship the Black Queen" Kenrya: My face is all screwed up right now. Feminista: Yeah, no, it should be, because it's gross, and I'll be like, not saying that having a white man ... But whatever, it's just a lot sometimes. Erica: It's not your thing. Feminista: Right. You get brothers whose default picture is a picture of their dick, and it's like, I don't need that. Kenrya: Because dicks are abundant and low in value. Feminista: They are so abundant and short. So they have an events page but then you also have groups, so you can check out the groups, there's a lot of message boards. Really just kind of learning. The other thing I would recommend for people is to go to workshops. I know in Philadelphia, for example, we have a number of groups and parts of the community where there's always a rope demo going on, there's always a flogging demo, there's always some kind of conversation about what it means to be a person of color in kink. There's always something going on that's either free or low charge that you can just go, and you don't have to participate, you can just sit in the back and listen because I think that the education is really so important, learning from people that have been doing that. And I would say going to munches, like I said, meeting people that are near you, you're a mess but meeting people that are near you. Kenrya: No, she keeps laughing because ... So she calls my daughter, who is her goddaughter, Munch. Feminista: Oh God. Thats awkward. Kenrya: And she's also a child. So every time you say it, she over there giggling because it makes her think. Erica: But the funny thing is I am Auntie Munch, so like I call her ... Because she was a munchie baby, so I called her Munch and I'm Auntie Munch, and I'm like, now I feel like that title is so fitting for me. However, I need to reevaluate it for her. But yeah. I am drunk Auntie Munch, okay. Feminista: That's kind of funny. But yes, those are things, that's what we call them, and I think also there are people that maintain ... Facebook has a ton of kink groups, I'm in a couple of them in which people are discussing things all the time. It's one of those things like if you want to know, you need to go seek it out, you need to be proactive about it. Then some people are not big on being involved in community stuff and that's fine, too. We are in the information age, you can go to Google, anything that you want to learn about related to kink, maybe you and your partner want to just kind of sit down, watch some videos, there's rope tying demos on YouTube, you can find stuff on YouTube, you can find blogs and read and experiment yourselves. Erica: So we are rapping up but I do have one question, one silly question for you. So, I want to ask you a would you rather question. So, would you rather be a sub to someone with no short-term memory or a sub to someone who can only speak in whispers. Feminista: Oh my god. Wait. Erica: Have you watched- Feminista: So no short-term memory or whispers Erica: So kind of like Awkward Black Girl that got in the office that can only... Feminista: Oh my god. Erica: Like, "Get over here, bitch. Would you like me to speak up?" Feminista: Oh wow. You know what. Erica: Or he repeats everything. Feminista: If I can them a portable microphone or like a bullhorn or something. Erica: It'd just come out like a really loud whisper like, "HEY. LIE DOWN BITCH." Feminista: I think actually I'd probably choose the no short-term memory. Kenrya: Really? Feminista: Because no short-term memory means they have long-term memory so if they don't remember it Monday at 4:55, they'll remember it Tuesday, so I'll be all right. Erica: But if she or he says, "Go sit down, go get on your knees in front of the couch," and then goes and uses the bathroom and comes back he's like, "But why you on your knees?" Feminista: I'd be like, "I don't know." Erica: "I was looking for something on the floor." Feminista: That's the first thing I thought of, is like, well I wouldn't have to do shit. I wouldn't have to do much of anything. But the if I was truly being a submissive type and really kind of connected with that I would say, "Well, you told me to be on the floor and so here I am." So we'd just kind of ... I feel like I would try a lot throughout the day. "You told me to ..." It'd be like, no, because like can you imagine being in bed, right, and they're getting out the paddle and the flogger and stuff and they put it on the bed and then they go to the bathroom- Erica: Who's this for? Feminista: And they come back and they be like, why are you laying there with all that stuff on the bed? When you said you were going to use it. And then they go and they use the paddle and they step away and they come back and use the paddle again, it's like, "You just used that! Like ow, man!" Oh my God. I would choose that, though, that'd be fun. I don't think I could deal with the whispering because eventually it would probably ... It would take me ... I would respect you but it'd take me about 20 minutes to be like, "Can you just shut the fuck up?" Erica: That'd be it. Feminista: Don't make me laugh, I just started going back to the gym, my abs hurt. I got so fat, listen, but I started back at the gym now, so when I laugh now that shit hurt. Kenrya: It's just letting you know that the work is working. You're putting in ... Feminista: But you know what, I'm going to put this in this group, I'm going to put that same question in this group that I'm in because I want to see the answers. Erica: You've got to tell us what they say. Feminista: I will, will. Oh my god. I'm going to be like, so I was recording a podcast about kink and they asked me ... That's hilarious. All right. Kenrya: This is awesome. So, we're so glad that you were here. See? I didn't even know we was going to laugh so much. This is dope. Feminista: Thank you very much. Kenrya: So your newest book is "Reclaiming Our Space: How Black Feminists Are Changing the World from the Tweets to the Streets." Where can people find that book and you and all the rest of your work? Feminista: So the book is everywhere, you can go to a bookstore, library, online, anywhere, it's in a bunch of countries. People haven't had much issue getting it. A lot of times they've gone into stores and it's been sold out, so you can always request it. Just request it and they'll order it for you. I think it's ... I would actually tell people to order it at the library because libraries are the biggest book buyers so if you go and request it ... One woman told me there was a 30 person wait at her library for the book- Kenrya: Because they probably had like two copies. Feminista: Yeah. You should probably order more copies. So you can do that. I am on Twitter, @feministajones, Facebook is Feminista Jones Official, I am on Instagram, @feministajones, and my website is feministajones.com. If you want to know what's going on with me, you can go to my events page, feministajones.com/events and you'll be able to see what's coming up. Yeah. Kenrya: Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us before you go on your break. Feminista: Thank you. I appreciate you all having me. I always do. I love doing this stuff, it's fun. Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Erica and Kenrya and edited by B'Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. Every five star review posted on Apple Podcast between now and July 31st, 2019, will be entered into a raffle to win a copy of one of books we read on the show. We're giving away five books, just post your review and email a screenshot to [email protected] to enter. And please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter, @theturnonpod, and Instagram, @theturnonpodcast, and find links to books, transcripts, guest info, and other fun stuff at theturnonpodcast.com. Holla. |
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be. Archives
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