|
LISTEN TO THE TURN ON
Amazon Music | Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Pandora | Radio Public | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | YouTube CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES This week, Erica and Kenrya talk to Dr. Lanice Avery about who's going to save Black women (spoiler: it's us); being our whole, expansive selves; the importance of nurturing friendships with other women; leaning into our unexpected strengths; the virtues of being a curious bitch; and getting off and getting free. RESOURCES
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here, get off. [theme music] Kenrya: Come here. Get off. Thank you so much for joining us yet again. Today we are talking to Dr. Lanice Avery, pronouns she and her. Lanice is an aAssistant professor of psychology and women, gender, and sexuality studies at the University of Virginia. She earned her PhD in a joint program in psychology and women's studies at the University of Michigan. Yes, Midwest. Kenrya: Her research uses multiple methods to explore Black women's intersectional identities, sexual socialization, and how the negotiation of hegemonic gender ideologies in racial stereotypes are associated with adverse psychological and sexual health outcomes. The primary aim of her research is to promote healthy racial, gender, and sexual development among socially marginalized and stigmatized groups. Kenrya: Thank you for coming on! Lanice Avery: Thank you for having me. Erica: That's just a really fancy way of saying, "She's a bad bitch." Kenrya: Dope as hell. Right. Erica: She's a bad bitch. She knows her shit. She is fighting to make all Black women bad bitches as well. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: Family of bad bitches. Kenrya: Exactly that. I interviewed Lanice for my next book and we didn't even get that far into the interview before I was like, "Oh, you got to come on the show." I didn't know what book it was going to be. Lanice Avery: Let's do it right now. Let's do that. Kenrya: I was like, "But, we going to make that happen." So, thank you. Lanice Avery: I'm glad to be here, really glad to be here. Kenrya: Yay. Lanice Avery: I feel like I do all of my psychology work to finally get invited to have the conversations that I want to have which is much more in this format. Kenrya: Yay. Erica: Yay. Kenrya: We'll take it. Erica: We about to jump on in. So what did little Dr. Lanice want to be when she grew up? I'm sorry. I'm going to call you Doctor all day because- Kenrya: You earned it. Erica: You earned it. So, yes. What did little Dr. Lanice want to be when she was growing up? Lanice Avery: Little Dr. Lanice wanted to be in En Vogue. Erica: Yes. Lanice Avery: "Giving Him Something He Can Feel" came out, and I was like, "I want that career." I didn't want to "give him something he could feel," but I wanted to be with that crew. Like I felt always very enthused about femininity. I felt like Black women were just magic and that their partners were wack, and I could be better partners for them. From early. Like I remember watching Phylicia Rashad, and I was like, "Your husband's Black. You're the baddest of them, fuck. He's corny as fuck." If all you got to do is be a doctor to get you a Clair Huxtable, I'll be that. I'll do that because I bet you I can turn it out in the way that she deserves because he's not cutting it. I know he isn't. Lanice Avery: And so I feel very similarly I would always be kind of watching the baddest women like on all fronts and then squelching themselves, shrinking themselves, succumbing to this violence or succumbing to these like circumstances, and I'm like, "Girl, why?" Lanice Avery: And also I know it's not like that. I can't even imagine the level of audacity that we have in the world to save all of us, the responsibility for racial uplift, be like the phenomenal baddie that we must be, to often be in these configurations that are not well suited for our magic. I just could not understand. Lanice Avery: I feel like I was a baby dyke early, early, early in, and I was like, "Well, I don't really get the ghettorosexual commitment, but I will try to figure out which all of y'all are going to be over there how to improve the stories that you all are incurring of the hardships in your lives just via your gendered social expectations. Lanice Avery: Black women are always going to save us. They're saving my people, saving themselves and each other over and over and over again. And I'm like, "Well, who's coming for us?" It's just us. And then what are we willing to risk and gamble in the event that we would get some love or for the deed? And I never really understood that, but I really wanted to think through that. Lanice Avery: So first I wanted to be in En Vogue, first and foremost. Then I realized, "Well, that's a group, and that's not always forever. And then they're battling it out, and they won't actually be your lovers. They'll just be your colleagues, and they hate each other." Lanice Avery: It's like a [inaudible 00:04:54], so I guess I'll try to be a doctor so that I can get a Claire Huxtable. And also to be kind of responsible to get folks in an office and say like, "Girl, there's a whole lot of things going on. And also, you got 99 problems, and your nigga's the main one. So let's talk about that." Lanice Avery: And then so through working in the hospital I was mostly interested in what was possible in the nurse practitioner area and working in a women's health clinic and who was doing outreach. I felt like those people were smarter. I felt like the folks who came in had more information about what's happening in their worlds than anybody in the hospital ever did. Lanice Avery: And so I think being a curious bitch, infinitely asking questions sort of led me to this community health venture where I work with whoever got the most dollars to make the most cents and that currently looks like being a professor at the University of Virginia that I don't feel that I ever was like, "I want to be a professor." I just want to pontificate. I just want to know why are we making these terrible fucking choices and who is coming for us. Lanice Avery: And until then, I will save them. And you can lay in my bosom while you soothe your pains from what the world is doing to us and mastermind how we're going to, once again, save ourselves. Erica: Okay. Well, that's it. And now you see why we brought Dr. Lanice on because... Yes. Just back up real quick. Did you say "heterosexual" or "ghettorosexual?" Lanice Avery: I said "ghettorosexual." Kenrya: That's what I... Okay, that's what I thought I heard. Erica: Yes, such a term. Lanice Avery: It's ghetto as hell. And I'm gold star. Been dyking since been dyking. That's all I know. But I have these homegirls and I'll be like, "Well, what are y'all doing? What are y'all talking about? What is courtship? What's the pop off?" I just don't understand the pacing and I understand it also looks wild because it's like, "We talked for three weeks and we're soulmates and now we live together." You know? Erica: Yeah. Lanice Avery: And I'm not saying that queer relationships are inherently so different, too, because a lot of people do internalize this raggedy configuration that's about, "You got to be the king, even though he's not. Your role is to make him feel, in somewhere in the world that he has imminent domain, even though he doesn't, and then just make sure that he doesn't burn every fucking thing down in the moment that you're trying to bolster that. Lanice Avery: And I'm like, "But if you don't know, why would you do that? If you don't trust him to do that and it's you in the end it's like why wouldn't yall just state that up front?" So I do think some of the logics of heterosexuality feel ghetto to me. You know that song “Earth Is Ghetto, I Wanna Leave”? I'm like, "Whoa. What?" Lanice Avery: [inaudible 00:07:53] as a sexologist studying pleasure, orgasm, and desire and I'm like, "And you're not even getting off at the end of it. Why are we here?" [inaudible 00:08:03] know about it, but I will study the hell out of it and I will ask a million questions over a lifetime and still not get the answers because we continue to be here. And also, I'm saying that in joke because literally I am jokes like humor first. Lanice Avery: But in sincerity, when thinking about what is a woman... What is health? What is women's health and wellness actually look like in a context that has always been designed to kill us? And where every single action has the reaction that causes casualty on us. What does it mean to be well in the system? What does it mean to be well in community and what does it mean to be well at home when even your community and the folks who live in your home who sometimes add to your detriments. Lanice Avery: And I think being in women's health and trying to think through... I started in an HIV prevention and reproductive health ring in coming to these workshops with all of my participants. I worked in an emancipated youth program and I work with a lot of drop-in centers and I work in county jails and juvenile halls and everyone would say, "All of this is worth it for love. That's my [inaudible 00:09:20] if I feel accepted and he accepts me and he makes me feel full, I will ride.” It seems not that big of a deal to get HIV if you have the opportunity, in some way, to experience that like love. And I'm calling this transformative love, this radical acceptance, that gives you room to be outside of the body of shame, outside of the body of constraint. You actually just get to feel full and desired. Lanice Avery: It was like, man, you will risk everything. Sanity, sense, coins, and actual freedom when we're thinking about a context of confinement like going to jail for the experience of love, well then, things like that's what my question is until I have always committed myself to the study and practice of love. Kenrya: Word. So what is... You do a lot, like we just talked about. What's your favorite thing about it? Lanice Avery: I have so many favorite things. One thing that is my favorite is how everyone will come to, no matter the domain that I'm sort of doing this work in, I'll get listed. White people come and they're like, "Let's see what Black failure looks like as a spectacle." Or people come and they're like, "She's attractive and she seems nice so I want to be there to support her, but never really understanding themselves in life as being primary stakeholders to Black women's freedom and joy and pleasure. They don't imagine that that has anything to do with them. Lanice Avery: And by the end, watching them have to interrogate what have they done to kind of be complicit in the systemic harm that comes with [inaudible 00:11:08] Black women's bodies. And also they are so thirsty to be down. And I recognize that being down for white folks who are complicit in racism and systemic misogynoir, it means little to me. I'm like, "Did you give all your money and all your time to save us? Then what is really being down?" Lanice Avery: But I do think watching what I have presumed to be the staunch and committed antagonists of Black womanhood change their attitude and figure like, "Oh, shit. That's where actually my freedom is, too. My freedom is in interrogating how am I complicit in the system and then taking a license, taking a step back to ask me like, "Homegirl, can you tell me what to do?" I'm like, "For a fee, I will boss you around forever. Yes, I will." So I do like that. Lanice Avery: I like moving this radical enterprise that's literally about getting off all the way and being free and being able to get some of the highest vestiges of power to invest in that project. That's what feels thug to me, and I feel like that is true to my South Central origins. Lanice Avery: But I also love watching Black women get the opportunity for one minute to imagine that there's more. Because I think we get really complicit comfortable holding the breadcrumbs, like the breadcrumbs at Thanksgiving, and being like, "Well, this is everything, right?" And it's like, "Actually, what if that was literally just crumbs in there, it was like an infinite capacity for you to have more. More desire, more pleasure, more fullness, more joy. And that you can make all of these decisions about that and be full of you and your sisters collectively. And that's why we can be literally all the things. Lanice Avery: What happens if we make a decision forever based on pleasure and fullness, rather than gratitude and concerns and communalism and don't stir the pot shit. And what if instead of being afraid of every negative stereotype that will come at you, what if you said, "Okay, bitch. I'll be that." Just like dudes do. What if you did that and you actually tried it? And watching them try that in small ways and come back into the transformative experience that it is for them in these small and these big ways. I love to be a conduit of more possibility and more joy for Black women. Lanice Avery: And I love that literally I only think about us. And I get a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of resources to also build squads that will only, and very explicitly and boundary-dly think about us and our joy and our possibility. Erica: Okay. So you've given us all the joys of what you do and it sounds beautiful, but what's the most challenging part? Lanice Avery: The most challenging part is the isolation that it comes with what it means to be in the academia and to do the kind of work that I do where I feel like all of my [inaudible 00:14:22] of people who move me the most... I'm very far from them. It's an endeavor I took because I'm like, "Where's the money? I want to get all of it and give it all back to us." But it means that I'm having a lot of conversations, generally, with white folks who don't mean as well, to buy them over. Lanice Avery: And even though I do end up winning them over and I am successful and I get to train people how to do that is the furthest from the folks that I love. And gaining mastery over the language and the skills, the statistics, the computation, the announcing... All of those things that make me very good at being an academic feminist psychologist. They meant... Lanice Avery: So, prime example. As part of my community health practice that I had when I was an undergrad and working with activists here in the Bay area, we did a mediation group, so there were a lot of folks who would experience domestic violence and who wanted to be able to provide an alternative to calling the police, so you call the mediation team and we would go in and my and my crew sort of specialize in working with queer folks and maybe folks who might be [inaudible 00:15:33] or gender non-conforming because they fare worse sometimes in these interfaces with the police. Lanice Avery: But in the way that we would sort of go and do promotion and do mediation work with those couples, it's so energizing and so enlightening that I went to grad school and I would come back and I would think about these elements and it would be the language that I now had exposure to and the frameworks that I was using, I became less and less approachable to the community. Less and less effective with those interpersonal mediation, right? The further I got into academia, the less I was in the practical. Lanice Avery: And the moment that my colleagues had to say, "This isn't working anymore. We need to move you into a different space." You move into lecture quickly, you move into, like data would say, very quickly because that's convincing to you and also that's not generally how people move. They can easily feel judged, feel read, and also not feel compelled to have action items for change because you're so data-driven in your approach. Lanice Avery: And that hurt. It was the right thing to do, to recognize that it can be that I'm growing beyond the ways that I had understood my mission and to grow to embody even a vaster mission, maybe. But not vaster comparatively saying that I dimmish that work, but every moment that buying into something else takes me sort of out and away from the people that I love and the lives that I care about the most. That is one of the largest challenges. Lanice Avery: Not only did I have to move from the Bay, the "Yay" if you will, to move to Michigan, which I loved Michigan, but I was not... I'm not from the Detroit and Detroit would be like, "And you're from Ann Arbor. We ain't rocking with you. You're a colonist here. You're over here to take from us and go write about it or whatever, and did, and we have a boundary around that” and that was true. Lanice Avery: And then I moved to... I thought I was going to come home, but then I got this remarkable opportunity to do transplanting scholarship with bank roll Thomas Jefferson on some like salvation for Sally Hemings moment. But I was over there in this really new and interesting context, I have a lot of opportunities, there was two Black women at the time that worked in my department. Lanice Avery: And so being a good steward of those opportunities is important and it's hard when you just can't find a boo to grease your scalp and cook you some food and rub on your booty and help you touch... You know, "Let me run my shit. Let me know if I'm good at this topic. You hit me, you feeling it?" You're removed from those connections and it means that I sort of had all of these separate selves. Lanice Avery: I'm always going to be my full self because... Well, it's a lot and it's too much to try to do anything else, but being in community with folks who are doing that, too, who are moving, who are energizing you is increasingly harder the further that I ascend. Kenrya: Word. So, that's interesting. We always ask folks what was the prevailing attitude about sex in their houses growing up, but I want to expand that. I want to ask what were you getting in the house as little Dr. Lanice that helped you to be able to... What were the prevailing attitudes around identity and around sex and around race that helped to contribute to you being this person who you are right now, or didn't? Lanice Avery: I was an only child and my mom had six siblings. Everybody had like five kids and I was the only me, and my mom, again, growing up in South Central in the '80s, it was the height of the crack epidemic, lots of men leaving all the time. Also, I'm Mexican and Black, so on the Mexican side, you got immigration issues and ICE and everyday there's this like, "You have to say goodbye to your men and you may never see them again," right? You don't know. Lanice Avery: And in that way, it felt like men always had room. They didn't have to do anything, because they're chronically in danger. They're so great to finally find... Joan Morgan, in “When the Chickenheads Come Home To Roost,” has this framework or this chapter that talks about the endangered Black men and the strong Black woman because that was the domain. That was the dynamic. Lanice Avery: Women are so assertive and you need to cull that to nourish and nurture and praise these teens who are under fire, who are targeted and hunted. But what that meant is that sometimes they didn't feel like they had any socialization to be connected to any kind of opportunities or any sort of responsibilities, because every day that I make it home, the miracle has happened. So like “drop to your knees, bust it down low, cook my food, and we all can just be grateful.” Lanice Avery: And it's women's then responsibility for everything: kids, family, parents, community, housing, home. Every single element fell to the shoulders of women, but women were so tight in my world-making with the way that I saw that, the way that my mom's best friends, sister, cousin, baby cousins from over there would show up to do the work that none of... these assholes fathers were doing... The way that if the money was tight, they would come together to do a catering event, to do somebody something in order to get that money so that you got yourself so your baby got school clothes or they get to go to their thing. Lanice Avery: We're the women that showed up and out for each other, Black women specifically. I was really moved by, energized by it. If I was going to partner with anybody, obviously it would be that because I will never be out here. My boo will go the hardest and I will consistently go the hardest for her, and there's a degree of reciprocity that we've always had in Black sisterhood that I don't ever see is actually matched. Lanice Avery: But I do think that part of my family being a lot of the women are very fair-skinned, again, having this bicultural contingency. There was such a sexualization for thug ass niggas, like whoever that is, whoever just got out, whoever's buck... They're like, "I'm about to tear that up.” It will tear me up and down and it will probably last for about 10 to 12 months before they return to wherever they came from to get that buck in the first place, but what a ride and what a story to tell. Lanice Avery: So I do think that as an ear-hustling ass curious kid, I was always trying to figure out whatever these grown bitches was talking about. The stay out of grown folks business was for me. Oh, so precocious. I could chill for a little bit. Lanice Avery: But I just loved watching these women finally get into the space and let themselves talk about what this D is doing to them. “What he did? How'd that happen? Girl he had me....” I was like the joy of Black women having to be muted because we're so angry, because it's so fucked up. Everything that we're moving through everyday is so intense. There's so much pain that the moment that you get to either talk shit... Women love to do that, get together and talk shit, but talking shit specifically about how you got turned out and what you let yourself do, what you let yourself experience. That good kiki was my favorite. Lanice Avery: So I learned that niggas ain't shit, but it is a very good time and it will list it like a remarkable amount of joy mostly with your homegirls when you get the opportunity to tell the stories about the beauty that you experience. Also the pain that you experience with your dude kind of bring you closer to your sisters anyway. They always came back to me as a sister which is why I was like, "Let's just drop it." Erica: Let's just chop out the middle man. Lanice Avery: Not even [inaudible 00:23:35]. Erica: I feel like if we all over here, let's just be over here then. Erica: That, I mean, yeah. You just talking about coming back with your girls, the kiki among the sisters, that is... I feel like when I get together with my girls that is pretty much what it's about. Yeah, the joy and beauty of sisterhood and I think it's amazing that at a young age you were able to see it and hone in on it and really study it. Because I think, personally, as an adult, it took... I mean, I always had... I am not one of those "I don't have female friends," kind of chicks. [crosstalk 00:24:28]. Kenrya: That's such a red flag. Erica: Yeah. Lanice Avery: You boo, that's [inaudible 00:24:34]. So I'm going to be the first to die is basically what I'm saying. I'm saying... All right. Erica: But as of late, not too late, but recently I started to really soak up and enjoy... I mean, I've always enjoyed my relationships with my girlfriends, but I now like seeing the beauty in it and the joy in that and it's very important for my girlfriends. Erica: I mean, I have a son, but my son sees it. I want him to see the value in it. I want all my nieces to see the value in girlfriends. It was interesting. I was out of town last week and my girlfriend's daughter was with us and we were like... She was running errands and she dropped her daughter off and she got dressed and her daughter was like, "Where are you going?" She was like, "I'm going to see my girlfriends." "Why you getting dressed up?" She's like, "You always get dressed up to go see your girls." Lanice Avery: That, that. Shout-out to all my hoes. Shout-out to all my girls who know. We show up, show out for each other. Erica: Because, I mean, on a date you're going to get some comfy, some flats. But for my girls? Bitch, look at these heels. Lanice Avery: Yes, and also because they're the ones who are going to say that. You might get a compliment or something, but sometimes folks who ain't in don't even know what they're looking at. They're like, "Something happened. I see the energy. I'm feeling that. But I don't know and I can't tell enough to really appreciate what did you do and how much time did all of that take? I see it now. I see it. I see it. I see it. See it. Eat it. And if you don't have a refined palette, then you're for what? Erica: It looks good. No, this is a new shade of lipstick and only my girls knew that. Lanice Avery: And it pops. Look at this texture, look at this color, look at this wear. I think there's so many domains, and we have the most robust analytical possibility for appreciation and love. And also, when you read Audre Lorde's essay, “Eye to Eye,” talking about hatred, the fact that we get so much hatred in the world, she says Black women eat hatred like daily bread in the world. It's easiest for us to do that to one another. Lanice Avery: So you have all of these women who are like understanding Black women as their primary adversaries in life or their obstacles in their life far more than the harvest, the heaven, the richest place of love, ever, and I love for people to listen in to that. And I appreciate, one by one, helping many Black women land and realize the [inaudible 00:27:25]. This is the Disneyland where I can die on this is the mountain [inaudible 00:27:28]. Erica: Yeah. We're building promise land and ushering everyone to it. Okay, so we invited you on the show because last week we read this story called “Four Letter Word” and it centers around the theme of sexual identity. The main character really has trouble being her full lesbian self and we know that your research focuses on how people internalize those bullshit ass standards. Tell us a little bit about how this oppression can impact the way Black women move through the world. Lanice Avery: That's a really, really, good question. Erica: It was Kenrya's. Kenrya: Throw me under the bus, that’s fine. Erica: No, that's good ass question. I'm giving credit where it's due. I was just going to be like, "Where do you get that duster or whatever?" [inaudible 00:28:32]. Lanice Avery: [inaudible 00:28:36]. Erica: Oh, shit. Okay. Lanice Avery: [inaudible 00:28:40] Yeah. No, I think I can answer that from so many places. I can, most recently just tell you two ways that I've studied and thought about that is we have this concept in social psychology called meta-stereotype awareness and what that means is, I think for some people, we think about stereotypes and whether or not you believe them is what will catch you up. So if you think about kids and you're like, "Somebody doesn't think about [inaudible 00:29:12]" and it's like it doesn't matter about them, though. You can until you will, and then the story is in many story books, then you do because you believed in yourself. Lanice Avery: But meta-stereotype awareness, you don't even have to believe that girls perform worse. The notion that you are aware that other people think that girls perform worse means that you will inherently perform worse, right? It is a kind of combination of stereotype [inaudible 00:29:36] and I started wanting to know like, "How does that work for women who are negotiating around this assumption for Black women, always, that we're negotiating around this narrative that we're hypersexual. You got Missy Elliot saying "Pussy don't fail me now, I gotta turn this nigga out so he don't want nobody but me.” Lanice Avery: But also, we know that if you're too eager or you look too wonton, if you look too skilled, then you's a hoe, right? And that you're only good for a good time and then you become suspect. If you have too much sexual agency or too much interest, you look suspect, right? Lanice Avery: It challenges your domains of femininity or passivity or whatever the narratives are that we have for women, particularly in heterosexuality, but also in queerness around femininity, to look [inaudible 00:30:24] and interested and thirsty. You're not allowed to do that. Lanice Avery: So I think I like to understand that concept of how are we negotiating around those things, whether or not we actually internalize them, which some people do and they're like, "I can't have more than five sexual partners in my whole life span, so I can't afford this conversation," right? Going in and dating... Lanice Avery: I learned that in college or when I went to grad school because where I'm from we're all thotty and I thought that was the norm and then I went to Michigan and there was all these undergrads and they were like, "I've had two partners." I'm like, "Lies." Because these white students are like... I bust down five just today like they [inaudible 00:31:04] so much responsibility. Lanice Avery: Literally, face down, ass up in the streets every Saturday morning for a game. And I was like, "Why is it so different?" But I think respectability really kicked into those folks and there was a narrative like, "You can't have mileage. You can't have bodies. You can't be somebody understood because that takes you out of the eligibility for these partnerships that you really are interested in. Now, whether or not... There's no [inaudible 00:31:31], there's no wear and tear on time. It doesn't actually work like that, but cognitively it does, and so therefore socially there's stigma and therefore it carries traction. Lanice Avery: So I think about... Again, I can answer that question from a million angles, but I'm really interested in what is the harm in us holding an awareness, that there is an imagining that our proximity to these golden rings of baddie-ness, whether that be about how we actually physiologically look, whether that be about what our level of sexual experience is, whether that be about our class or whether or not we're mothers or whether or not we were married when we became mothers, whether or not we are able or if we have some ability, challenges... Any of those things that we're holding that might take us away from the ideal our tran-situated selves would diminish our sense of sexual self-esteem. That sense of self efficacy as human beings, and sometimes even our relationship to racial identity. Lanice Avery: There's a proper kind of Black. We imagine there's a Black monolith and if you're going to be an attractive Black woman, we have a script for that. If you're going to be just a bad ass Black woman, we have a script for that because Fannie Lou Hamer was not, in any kind of way, Josephine Baker. We must never get those two mixed. Lanice Avery: But yes, we are a multitude and we have all of those things. So the more expansive that we can be around the narratives of exceptionalism or idealism that we internalize, the more free we are. And by free, I mean... And the way that I've been measuring that is some folks are not having sex and that's a problem or not a problem for folks, but if you are having sex and you negotiate that sexual assertiveness, is how I think about that which is your capacity to initiate the sex that you want, the expectation that you deserve pleasure, the room to negotiate that event in a way that is optimizing your pleasure, and also, the skill and the capacity to refuse unwanted or unsafe sex. Lanice Avery: And so if you made it through all that with so many ladies in my surveys don't always make it through, then how do you have this experience of sex without emerging from the even without so much guilt and shame? How many people go into a tailspin after that? So many people don't feel good enough to show up and that, right? Like, "Yes, body. Eat it. Here it is." They're like, "Turn the lights off. Nothing jiggled. Don't move. Be dead." If someone can actually show up fully to a sexual event then feel good enough to feel entitled to pleasure and negotiate that, then end and not be like, "I'm a hoe. I'm terrible." Lanice Avery: If you can do all of that, you're more likely to get through that experience in a way that is pleasurable and where only pleasure stays on the tongue in spirit if you are not internalizing these narratives about what it should be or internally idealizing these proximities, right? Like, "Oh I would fuck better if I were lighter skinned or if I were thin." Or "I would get a better quality of D if I looked a particular way because as Andre 3000 says, there's a presumption that “top notch hoes get the most, not the lesser” like UGK "I Choose You." Lanice Avery: And that's like, "But do you?" Erica: Girl. It's wild. You are over here preaching to me. Damn, you preaching. Okay, I'm just going to... Yeah. We're going... Once this is off because I want to. Bitch, you preaching. You legit brought tears to my eyes. Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. So I know in some parts of your research you kind of look at the ways that media kind of influences that development of that gendered racial identity. Can we talk about how media has us fucked up and how it contributes to us not being able to fall into that pleasure in that way? Lanice Avery: We can. I always want to stan a little bit for... Not to classify that by nature of how I studied things it's like primed to study the worst. Psychology studies the worst or the absence of worst and presumes that that's best. And that is not best. We're not studying best. You're not expecting to find best. You will not yield best. So I have to say that. Lanice Avery: I do try to do different kind of things methodologically to optimize the possibility for best including having measures of literally best. And also I find worst a lot. I find, in my own personal life, misogyny sounds good as fuck. And there is a way that even when you don't hear the lyrics, a repetition of the ethos, the mission, still catches itself in [inaudible 00:36:33]. Lanice Avery: So we find a lot of times where you will have like "Hip hip is the worst." Right? When you look at the lyrics, some of the things [inaudible 00:36:43] one of my first studies in grad school was looking at I wanted to take whatever we're talking about in terms of gendered scripts and what is positive about femininity, what's negative about masculinity, and I wanted to see how much are we actually talking about that in Black music. Lanice Avery: So I looked at 25 years of the top charting hip-hop R&B songs or songs performed Black artists, and I wanted to see to what degree, how salient is the message that bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks? How is it... If it comes out 95% of the time like it does when we talk about hip-hop then great but it didn't. It didn't. Lanice Avery: Men had such an expansive capacity. It did, some of these narratives did change, but also men in music got room to be lovers. They got room to be depicted as feminine, to be depicted as saviors, to be depicted as in need of romanticism and interested in that just as much as they got depicted as like shoot ’em up, dangerous, risk-taking, "I'm everything, I got all the money." All of those narratives. Also I got researchers from the University of Michigan to read Rick Ross and we didn't have to [inaudible 00:37:54]. Lanice Avery: I didn't say that was my favorite, but I have to say in my whole research career, that was probably my favorite. But even my advisor would say, "Bitch ass niggas" many times because empirical research. [inaudible 00:38:07]. Lanice Avery: Anyway, she would say like, "I'm going to say BAN or PAN for punk ass nigga," but she wouldn't say it. I'm like, "Just say it. [inaudible 00:38:14]. No you can say it. If you can't say it then you shouldn't be listening.” She's like, "I don't listen. I only like Pharrell's ‘Happy.’" That's what she was listening to a lot at the time. I think she is such a happy person so I appreciated that, but I was like... Erica: I was listening to “young nigga move that dope,” also… Lanice Avery: It sounds good. Misogyny sounds good. To that end, though, when you study exposure or consumption of that rhetoric, you don't buy one to one correlated. It's not like the more you listen in the future, the more of a hoe ass bitch you are. Period. That's it. The more you listen to Nikki or the more you listen to any of these things, the more of a hoe you are. It's never that. Lanice Avery: So I appreciate that my work finds that there's not that unidirectional relationship between consumption of these messages that suggest that Black women are fucking bottom rung. And then they go and understand themselves as bottom rung. But again, meta-stereotype awareness is also... It does hamper negotiation processes. Knowing that somebody thinks that you're the worst, even when you don't believe that about yourself, it still hampers, in some kind of way, how you end up acting. It takes additional energy to not again reify that stereotype, to not do any of that, and that cognitive energy is not always spent focusing on pleasure, focusing on fullness, and just being like, "How do I feel? Do I want this?" You go into a different sort of place. Lanice Avery: So, interestingly, even though we read such... As a world, we consume magazines less than we ever did. The magazines and the imagery on those magazines are still one of the most harmful things for a woman to consume, in terms of their ability to sort of come out of that, thinking expansively about their bodies, about their partners [inaudible 00:40:16] ideals is about femininity. That is still one of the most harmful places. Lanice Avery: But I don't find consistently that listening to R&B hip hop is terrible. I also don't find that it's terribly empowering. It's mixed. And I don't find that watching reality TV shows... That's never born out. Everybody's like [inaudible 00:40:35] that the only way you're going to be terrible. It's literally not. I've never found this in intimate relationship empirically between reality television or even some of these scripted series and terrible ideas and constraining ideas about beauty, femininity, and all that [inaudible 00:40:49]. Lanice Avery: So empirically I love that because I'm a bitch who loves raggedy media. And I feel very quick to tell somebody what you ain't doing and what I ain't is one of these things because I'm literally the baddest. You couldn't even understand it because you're not ready and you haven't ever come as many times as I've come. You don't even know what it was like to sort of live in that place, but I would like to teach you if you are [inaudible 00:41:15] we can start our training sessions. Kenrya: So in the book that we read last week, the main character who we already talked about as having some trouble being her full self. She's also having a hard time setting boundaries and that's with platonic relationships, romantic relationships, all relationships she don't know. I'm wondering what tools do you wish that all Black women had in that area? Lanice Avery: So I'm writing a paper right now with my graduate student and we deal a lot with these stereotypes about Black women, Jezebel, nanny, strong Black women, and how those relate to mental health and sexual health, and one that we hadn't ever looked up ended up being a superhero as a Sapphire stereotype, so the angry Black woman stereotype. Lanice Avery: I have always imagined that that's again, something that Black women are just so averse to holding and I want reify that. But in that study we found that folks who, whatever degree internalized higher levels of Sapphire stereotypes, so I'll be that, I would call that. Endorse I'll be that and who also feel that being a Black woman is of central importance to themselves, including the welfare of Black women in general. I'm committed to that and their well-being is of central importance to my identity. Lanice Avery: Them hoes have better sex than everybody. Better boundary setting, better capacity to initiate the sex that they want, better sexual desire, better reports of wellness, sexual well-being, Sapphire is coming through. So we started thinking in my lab, me and my doctoral student were so excited about that and I'm like, "Well, what is it?" Because Sapphire actually isn't that, it's that patriarchy is that. And patriarchy says anything that is an obstacle to me being an absolute domain, I will corrupt the image of and create a system that dissuades anybody from taking that up. Lanice Avery: We think about feminists like bra-burning, man-hating people and literally feminists are just like, "Girl, you're working. You should get paid. Girl, you deserve to eat and go to sleep just like everyone else,” right? Erica: And afford childcare. That's all. Lanice Avery: That's it. You deserve... If you got this level of education, too you deserve to be able to go to school just like everybody else or at least be able to benefit off the degrees that you have in the same way because you had to put in the same levels of work. Lanice Avery: And in the case of Black women, we've never been exempt from work. We've been working overtime because we're working to produce the labor body and also [inaudible 00:44:07] the bodies that we're producing picking cotton just with you, too. But I'm pregnant and nursing and I'm out here with you, too, so I think I would... Again, if I could distill it, I would want all Black women to recognize it's not the worst to just be that. Because that is likely just a maligned representation that has come out of what it means to reconcile with powerful individuals who are resilient beyond. Lanice Avery: And if you fueled, if we just said Stacy Abrams is literally all the things, and focus on the background of Michelle Obama, whatever it is, but killed it at Harvard Law and maybe was even a badder lawyer than her own husband. If we socialize everybody to internalize that, then we would be in trouble as a society that really rests and functions on its subjugation of Black women. Lanice Avery: So I would challenge everyone to recognize that baddie does get you into a place where you have to... Because masculinity is so harmful, toxic, and often dangerous, and because Black women's stoicism often is about presenting to be invulnerable or superhuman. It doesn't mark you for danger. But in the day-to-day, you might actually have more agency and in the day-to-day you actually might get off harder if you went in being that, rather than if you were so focused on how to not be any of the things that take you out of the running for the most. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). All right. So you were just talking about being superhuman and this is not that, but I do want to know what's your superpower? Lanice Avery: Oh. I think I'm a lover, like in all ways, truly. And I think I have a pretty robust capacity to bring, to make love happen and community happen among folks who could have never imagined that community could happen in such a way. I get to do that, but I just always envisioned a possibility that wasn't there, and I'm good at manifesting possibility. And that possibility often looks like... Sometimes it's like Rihanna's work performance on that stage where it was like the party that you always wanted to be at. Sometimes it's like Little Simz's video, “Woman,” where it's like, "Oh, if I die I won't happen to look like that." Lanice Avery: But really just saying there's a vision for more and I have... I think it's a superpower that I'm unwilling to accept the lesser life in any kind of way. I have an insatiable need for everything that I need and just being able to work to go get it. I don't acquiesce well, but I do feel like I'm able to create community and create collaboration across difference in a way that is pretty skilled, I think. And I've been doing that since I was younger. Lanice Avery: I also think one of the things that I have that is a superpower is a little... People don't know what to expect from me. They're like, "You're a cherub. You keep saying you want to fuck me and I don't really know what happened." Or like [inaudible 00:47:49] and you're talking about Beyoncé, but somehow I really want to run data with you, I think there's this... Maybe to bring in... I don't know. It was that terrible show where they had the vampires glamor you. Kenrya: Oh, “True Blood.” Lanice Avery: “True Blood.” Kenrya: Yeah, I watched that shit. I was hating watching it at the end, but yeah. Lanice Avery: It's so bad [inaudible 00:48:10]. I don't know that I'm glamouring for manipulation's sake, but I'm glamouring the white supremacist patriarchy sometimes to be able to get our feet in the door. And they are never then able to look at us 100% the same afterward and I appreciate that. I feel like I'm trying to do that with my literature. I'm trying to do that with my field and I'm trying to do that on an individual and meta level. You will put respect on Black women's names because we are literally everything. Lanice Avery: And, if you try to check me on it, I got all the receipts that you don't have because I studied everything harder than you ever will, so you lost. Kenrya: Before you even fucking started. Lanice Avery: No, you lost. Trust that. Kenrya: Yeah. What are you reading right now? Lanice Avery: So I'm reading many things. That's the story of my world. I'm re-reading Jennifer Nash had this book called “Black Feminism Re-imagined.” It's about intersectionality and kind of a rethinking in how we might be able to utilize intersectionality. And there's this author Christina Sharpe, who has this book called “In the Wake” and I just think her prose is remarkable and comes... Lanice Avery: As a psychologist who knows that nothing good for Black folks come out of psychology, I really find so many energizing theories about what wellness actually is. I think all of us can tell you what we fucking hate. But when you say, "What do you love? What makes you full?" The answers are thin, often. It's hard for Black women to live there. Lanice Avery: So, I think always re-reading adrienne maree brown's “Pleasure Activism” and thinking through what's a testable question here? Thinking about what is actually being intersectional when you're not being just thinking about these dimensions. How do we be richer in how we're thinking about that in science, not necessarily in theory, but how we take that up in quantitative psychology or psychological science. Lanice Avery: And then what does it mean to be post-Antebellum enslavement? What does it mean to be well in this context? I think Christina Sharpe talks so beautifully and richly about that. I've never met her. I hope to meet her one day, and also not be gay when I meet her because [inaudible 00:50:48] but how she talks about that possibility. But I think so hard about what is wellness. I'm reading the fuck out of psychology about their pathological models of knowing, but also recognizing it is very hard to think about wellness and it's only like a Toni Morrison and Maya Angelou that can really get me to be imagining that I have to in order to be able to measure something, and then offer that back to us as a strategy for how to be socialized. Lanice Avery: I talked to these content creators who are making media imagery about us to put those storylines in so that we can begin from an early age. A collective thinking about more and not less. Kenrya: What's turning you on today? Lanice Avery: I have a new girlfriend and she is so sexy and so smart and so brilliant and she's an English professor who studies Black lit and she's such a boss. It's very hard to out boss me, but when ladies can, then I'm like, "Oh, what are you doing for Friday? Are you [inaudible 00:51:55] that or not?" Lanice Avery: But I am a sapiosexual so I'm very intellectually inclined, but also I'm studying and looking at your titties while it's happening, the two of those things. That's why Black feminism is perfect for me as a field and as a physiological place. So she is really the fuck [inaudible 00:52:15] and I'm here for it. I'm like, "Yes." Lanice Avery: People generally who are giving themselves over, not only to the labor of love, but also to the practice of love and then to the benefit of love like so many activists are working hard, but they're not working hard in the experience part and working hard in the delight part. If anything, sometimes we work so hard that we become unable to be in pleasure. We only understand that to be a disarming moment and in danger, but she is able to think very deeply and bask endlessly in the depths of pleasure. I'm like, "That's me there." Because that's what it's all about. Kenrya: Yeah. Okay, so we always do a lightning round, rapid kind of a situation. It’s fun. And this is Erica's question and it is a very good one. And it is please rank these couples from most trash toxic to healthy, knowing of course that this is very subjective. So I'm going to give you the couples and you rank them. Kenrya: So Whitley and Dwayne. Gina and Martin. Oh, you're writing them down? Lanice Avery: Yeah. Kenrya: Okay. Gina and Martin. Melanie and Derwin. Sinclair and Overton. And Rainbow and Dre. Lanice Avery: Heterosexual, all of them. All of them got their passes to that gold star. Kenrya: Damn, they all are heterosexual. But that also shows the fucking dearth of where's everybody else on TV? Lanice Avery: Strangely, I would say Obie and Sinclair. I think they have it best. I think they probably experience more pleasure than anybody because they're less mired down in these notions of what should be. And then less mired down by comparing themselves to what is being approximated there and what isn't. They're in their own vision. They got their own language, they got their own land and in that way I think their love story is remarkable. Lanice Avery: I mean I'm not interested... I don't personally find quirky or too much whimsy is not... It doesn't hit. Kenrya: It ain't for you. Lanice Avery: Well I got no fine ass hoes to come through, but all the swag. I'm like, "What's that?" So I feel like I'm utterly inundated in quirk and I am from South Central and again, I just want like [inaudible 00:55:18]. Do that. There's lot of ways to be daddy, but we also know it when we feel it and when we see it [inaudible 00:55:25]. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Lanice Avery: But I love... I think that couple always makes me a little... We don't think enough about their complete disregard of what should be permitted their capacity to be infinitely capacious in how they experience [inaudible 00:55:49]. Never heard Sinclair being like, "Overton don't know how to talk like this. Overton and I... He ain't doing this." It was never and he was never like, "Sinclair, how come you're not running everything over there, or how come you don't lose weight, or how come da da da." Nothing. They never had those conversations with one another and I think in that way they got to be the most free of all of these couples. Kenrya: Word. Lanice Avery: What are your rankings, how would you rank them? Kenrya: Oh, I'm with you. I actually think that they have the healthiest relationship of them all. I just think that they're so incredibly sweet and loving and like you said, they really weren't worried about what everybody else was doing. They knew that they were for each other and they made that shit happen and it was always all love, no matter what else was going on around them. Lanice Avery: [inaudible 00:56:42]. Kenrya: Yeah, for sure. Erica is also saying, "Me too." Yes. Okay, so what's next for you? What are you working on? Lanice Avery: Well, I am working on a million things. I am working on querying Black body image so I've thought a lot about how these approximations of white beauty norms happen for Black women and how femininity can fuck you up in the game, even when you aren't close to it, close to the ideal. Again, back to that question of like if you're the closest to attend, do you win? And survey says... My surveys say no, not necessarily if you have [inaudible 00:57:25]. What is your attitude and what are your beliefs and those sometimes have more bearing on what your outcomes are. Lanice Avery: But I didn't get to think about that among gender expanses and I didn't think about that among Black women who aren't necessarily trying to bag a cis-het dude. [inaudible 00:57:41] well, how does body image actually work there? And how does a strong Black woman work for folks who are nonbinary or maybe masc-presenting and don't buy into femininity in the same way? I just want to know does body image serve as a precursor to not only mental health, but also sexual health, in the same way that we find for heterosexual body image. That's one project that I'm working on. Lanice Avery: I'm working on another project that is thinking through how, in the field, do we measure whether or not your media was impactful. And then while I'm learning that, to be able to see what is the opportunity to utilize media, digital media and television media as an intervention on Black femininity and socialization. If we can socialize, I don't know if it's going to be the same Sinclair James phenomena, but certainly more Sinclair James than it would be Regine, in terms of how to be [inaudible 00:58:39]. If I was happy, hella happy. People talked about that as just a personality characteristic, but it also, I think was about how she negotiated her world. Lanice Avery: Like if you could write that in, is that an intervention? I know that you're not going to get conversations on wellness from school. You might not get them from your parents or at home or even in the kiki sessions with our homegirls. You might not get that. Lanice Avery: But we do need to learn that Sapphire can be a superhero strength of ours if we just stop fighting it. We can learn any of the topics of any of my papers recently, and it might be that we have to talk about it in a larger landscape where people are [inaudible 00:59:19]. They had a moment where you got your Issa, you got your Ava, you got OWN. You got everybody who's on these Netflix shows are so hungry for content that's culturally targeted, but if you're not saying the right message, then you're just going to reify the same domination that we've got here. Lanice Avery: So I'm doing work that might be more impactful. I'm asking questions that I think might be useful to content creators so that rather than studying an intervention funded by the National Institute of Health, Oprah will just take me up, fund me, and then we can just work together just to figure out how to give Black women another idea of how to be. I get off in all the ways, but certainly in how to have more and aspire to more. Kenrya: That's all very exciting. I want to know, for folks who want to follow you, know more about your work, keep up with what you're doing... Where can they find you online? Lanice Avery: You can find me on Twitter. I do not post very much. But dr_neecie, N-E-E-C-I-E, you will find me. Dr_Neecie. And then you can always email me. You can find me at Psych at University of Virginia. My email address is [email protected] if you want to know any of these exciting findings and learn more about what you might be able to do to get off more fully. Let me know. I'd love to find you in these streets and make more friends and make more collaboratives who are trying to make interventions on public health, who are trying to do theoretical interventions in the field, folks who are writing books... Anybody who's doing work on Black women's freedom and trying to figure out a different kind of place for them, more reproductive justice. I want to be intimate with you, in conversation with you. So please, I invite you to find me so that we can have some pretty live discussion. Kenrya: Yay. Okay, y'all do that. And for real, thank you so much for coming on, Lanice. Lanice Avery: Thank you so much for having me. Kenrya: This was lovely. Yay. And that is it for this week's episode of the show. Thank y'all for listening and we'll see you next week. Bye. [theme music] Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode. Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions. Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen. Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.
LISTEN TO THE TURN ON
Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Radio Public | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | YouTube CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES On Episode 10 of The Turn On, we read Song of Solomon from the Contemporary English Version of the Bible and discuss sex and religion, feminism and race. Resources:
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get off. Erica: So, welcome to this week's very special episode of The Turn On. With your hosts, Erica and Kenrya. Okay y'all. Welcome back. Kenrya: I like that. Erica: So, at our kids’ school's parent back to school night, the video rolls in the first song that they had was, "Welcome back." Kenrya: It was and I was thinking about your ass. Erica: I was like yes, they listen to The Turn On, all those parents in this hippy-dippy school. Okay, welcome back. This week we're going to do something a little different. We are going to read from the Song of Solomon in the Bible. Kenrya: Yeah. Oh, snap. Erica: Oh, snap. I will preface by saying this is the most you're going to hear me say dick and pussy for the remainder of the episode. Kenrya: When talking about Jesus. Erica: Just because I still feel like a little church girl in my white socks, and stocking, and my hair slicked back with smelling Blue Magic Grease when I read directly from the Bible. Kenrya: Bergamont. Erica: We'll get into that also. Yeah, we're reading excerpts from the Song of Solomon, which is in the Bible. We are reading from the Contemporary English Version. I will touch on why... We'll go into a little bit more details later. Nonetheless, here you go. Sit back, relax, get your wine, get your weed, get your weed and herb. It's a flower. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: So, get your wine, get your weed, get your water-based... I'm trying to find something that starts with a W that's a little churchy. Kenrya: I don't know what that may be. Erica: Wafer. Kenrya: What? Erica: Get your wine, get your weed, get your wafers. Communion, that kind. Communion wafers. Anyway, sit back, relax, and enjoy. Kenrya: The Song of Solomon, the Bible, Contemporary English Version. She speaks, 'Kiss me tenderly. Your love is better than wine and you smell so sweet. All the young women adore you. The very mention of your name is like spreading perfume. Hurry my king, let's hurry. Take me to your home.' The young women speak, 'We are happy for you and we praise your love even more than wine.' She speaks, 'Young women of Jerusalem, it is only right that you should adore him. My skin is dark and beautiful like a tent in a desert, or like Solomon's curtains. Don't stare at me just because the sun has darkened my skin. My brothers were angry with me and they made me work in the vineyard, and so I neglected my complexion. Don't let the other shepherds think badly of me.' She speaks, 'I am merely a rose from the land of Sharon, a lily from the valley.' He speaks, 'My darling, when compared with other young women, you are a lily among thorns.' She speaks, 'If you are my brother, I could kiss you whenever we happen to meet and no one would say I did wrong. I could take you to the home of my mother who taught me all I know. I would give you delicious wine, and fruit juice as well. Put your left hand under my head and embrace me with your right arm. Young women of Jerusalem, promise me by the power of deer and gazelles, never to awaken love before it is ready.' Their friends speak, 'Who is this young woman coming in here from the desert and leaning on the shoulder of the one she loves?' She speaks, 'I stirred up your passions under the apple tree where you were born. Always keep me in your heart and wear this bracelet to remember me by. The passion of love bursting into flame is more powerful than death, stronger than the grave. Love cannot be drowned by oceans, or floods. It cannot be bought no matter what its offer.' Their friends speak, 'We have a little sister whose breasts are not yet formed. If someone asked to marry here, what should we do? She has no wall that we can defend behind a silver shield. Neither has she a room that we can protect behind a wooden door.' She speaks, 'I am a wall around a city. My breasts are towers and just looking at me brings him great pleasure. Solomon has a vineyard at Baal-Hamon, which he rents to others for 1,000 pieces of silver each, but my vineyard is mine alone. Solomon can keep his silver and the others can keep their share of the profits.' He speaks, 'You're in the garden with friends all around. Let me hear your voice.' She speaks, 'Hurry to me my darling. Run faster than a deer to mountains of spices.' She speaks, 'Let the north wind blow and the south wind too. Let them spread the aroma of my garden so the one I love may enter and taste its delicious fruits.' She speaks, 'I was asleep but dreaming. The one I love was at the door knocking and saying, 'My darling, my very own, my flawless dove, open the door for me. My head is drenched with evening dew.' But I had already undressed and bathed my feet. Should I dress again and get my feet dirty? Then my darling's hand reached to open a latch and my heart stood still. When I rose to open a door, my hands and my fingers dripped with perfume. My heart stood still while he spoke to me, but when I opened the door, my darling had disappeared. I searched and shouted, but I could not find him. There was no answer. Then I was found by the guards patrolling the town and guarding a wall. They beat me up and stripped off my robe. Young women of Jerusalem, if you find the one I love, please say to him, 'She is weak with desire.' She speaks, 'He is handsome and healthy. The most outstanding among 10,000. His head is pure as gold. His hair is wavy, Black as a raven. His eyes are a pair of doves bathing in a stream flowing with milk. His face is a garden of sweet-smelling spices. His lips are lilies dripping with perfume. His arms are branches of gold covered with jewels. His body is ivory, decorated with sapphires. His legs are columns of marble on feet of gold. He stands there majestic like Mount Lebanon and his choice cedar trees. His kisses are sweet. I desire him so much. Young women of Jerusalem, he is my lover and friend.' She speaks, 'My darling as gone down to his garden of spices where he will feed his sheep and gather lilies. I am his and he is mine. He feeds his sheep among the lilies.' He speaks, 'You are a princess and your feet are graceful in their sandals. Your thighs are work of art. Each one a jewel. Your navel is a wine glass filled to overflowing. Your body is full and slender like a bundle of wheat bound together by lilies. Your breast are like twins of a deer. Your neck is like ivory and your eyes sparkle like the pools of Heshbon by the gate of Bath-Rabbim. Your nose is beautiful like Mount Lebanon above the city of Damascus. Your head is held high like Mount Carmel. Your hair is so lovely, it holds a king prisoner. You are beautiful. So very desirable. You are tall and slender like a palm tree and your breasts are full. I will climb that tree and cling to its branches. I will discover that your breasts are clusters of grapes and that your breath is the aroma of apples. Kissing you is more delicious than drinking the finest wine. How wonderful and tasty.' She speaks, 'My darling I am yours and you desire me. Let's stroll through the fields and sleep in the villages. At dawn, let's slip out and see if grapevines and fruit trees are covered with blossoms. When we are there, I will give you my love. Perfume from the magic flower fills the air, my darling. Right at our doorstep, I have stored up for you all kinds of tasty fruits.' Erica: Okay, so welcome back. I hope that we can get some good conversation around this. First, let's start off with why I picked this particular version of the Song of Solomon. I picked the Contemporary English Version because as well know the Bible was written by a bunch of men. Kenrya: Men. Erica: Over- Kenrya: A long period of time. Erica: A long period of time. I think that the more contemporary versions, try to do a better, try to be better at washing out some of the anti-womanist, anti-Blackness that was written in it. When I first picked Song of Solomon and I was reading various versions of it, the line that says, "My skin is dark and beautiful." In a lot of the other versions, it would say, "My skin is dark, yet lovely." Or, "My skin is dark but I'm pretty." That kind of thing. Kenrya: Always a 'but' there. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: Pretty for a dark skinned girl. Erica: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if that really was it. Kenrya: Right. Erica: I found this Contemporary English Version and listened to a few scholars. Let me give the disclaimer, by no means are we- Kenrya: We are not Biblical scholars. Erica: We are not Biblical scholars. We are not trying to be Biblical scholars. We are just two Black girls. Kenrya: Who believe in God. Erica: Who believe in the Lord. Kenrya: But, also believe in pleasure. Erica: Pleasure, exactly. Kenrya: Those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Erica: Exactly. The purpose of this episode is to walks through our decisions and thoughts about that. I'm not trying to be a Biblical scholar. I'm not trying to be a Biblical scholar. I'm not trying to act like I'm one. If you have your well, this happened, this happened. All right, girl. Kenrya: That's cool. Erica: Yeah, that's fine. We're going with what we're reading and how we're feeling. Back to what I was saying. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: I feel like the dark yet beautiful, or dark yet lovely was just a set up from the beginning of teaching people that dark skin isn't beautiful. And so, I was really adamant on finding a version of this reading that didn't contain the thou, those, thee’s. Kenrya: Yet's and but's. Oh, yeah. Erica: I also wanted something that reflected what I feel was the intent of this, which is saying that my skin is dark and beautiful, and it's not a but or a disclaimer, but just the fact that- Kenrya: This is who I am. Erica: This is who I am and I still feel like I'm beautiful for that. So, that's why we went with this particular version. Kenrya: That's dope. Erica: I said they were setting up standards of white beauty. I think it's also interesting and I'll call out some points in these passages, but I also think it was interesting how they used the old-timey just metaphors for beauty. They were like, "Your cheeks are like pomegranates." I can't remember if we read that part, or your bosom is like two deers. Let a nigga tell me I got bosom like two deers, I'd be like, the fuck? Kenrya: But, thank you. Erica: But, I mean it worked out. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: It worked out for all old-timey Biblical days. Right? Kenrya: It did. Can we or will we later talk about the whole dark skin thing? I think that's an important thing for us to pull up. Erica: I was going to, yeah. Kenrya: Are we going to do that later? Erica: No, we can do it now. Kenrya: Well because I mean, what this made me think of something that happened to me my first week of school in undergrad. It's happened in various forms, but this is the most blatant version of it. I was in the cafeteria, just minding my business, getting my lunch, and some dude walked up to me and tried to talk to me. I mean, I'm a freshman, he's I don't know, maybe a junior. I was like, "No thank you." He was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "No thank you." He was like, "I mean you should be glad I'm trying to talk to you." Erica: Oh, oh, oh. Kenrya: Oh, no. I didn't finish. "Because most dudes don't even like dark-skinned girls." I was like, "I've never had that problem." And I walked away and I went on about my business. I can't remember his face. I don't know his name, but the fact that he had the fucking audacity because that's what niggas always got, if they got nothing else, it's audacity. Erica: Oh, wow. To say that out loud. Kenrya: To say that to me. Erica: They ain't got shit, but the nerve. Kenrya: That has stuck with me. It comes back to that pretty for a dark-skinned girl, which is something that a lot of our friends have that we've talked about many times, about the way that you get treated as if it's a surprise that you're beautiful because you are dark. In reading that, that was what that brought up for me. Erica: Oh. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Oh. It all goes back to white supremacy. Just being indoctrinated with the idea that the further you are from the- Kenrya: From whiteness. Erica: From white. Kenrya: From the idea of that shit. Erica: White, straight, maleness, the farther you are from what's right. Kenrya: And from grace, and God, in those translations, right? Erica: And people will be so quick to classify themselves on a ladder just to make themselves feel superior. Kenrya: Well, I mean as I do all these talks about white supremacy, I mean that's ultimately what we're always talking about. Folks will step on everybody else to get to the top of the ladder. The hoteps that we talked about. Erica: I was just about to say, the hoteps. Kenrya: They aspire to whiteness. They want to be able to occupy the white cisgender, heterosexual, Christian, wealthy, able-bodied man's spot at the top of the hierarchy. Erica: I was scrolling through Twitter today and this is a half-assed, half-informed, I will say it now, but the bit I know, I'm this is already some fuck shit. There was a picture of T.I. and Alex Jones. Kenrya: Oh, God. Erica: Like dapping it up. They're like, "Yeah, we're going to get it in and have some conversation." It's just like and so my first thought was this is pure fuck shit, but also it was a thought that... See, this is a picture of hotepness because although hotepness is cloaked in the I love Black people. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: I love all Black things. Kenrya: It's cloaked in pro-Blackness. Erica: The root of it is- Kenrya: An aspiration to whiteness. Erica: To white supremacy. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: It's like although T.I. is Black and Alex Jones is white, they still share the same views on women. Kenrya: Women. Erica: And so I looked at that like oh, here's go T.I. stepping on the necks of everybody else for the sake of being white aligned, or closer to the top of that hierarchy. Kenrya: Yeah. I call that white aspiring. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: I mean, yeah. Ain't nothing worse than, I mean I think I respect an Uncle Ruckus more than I would a hotep. Kenrya: I mean, at least that nigga honest. Erica: Yeah, yeah. Kenrya: They say what it is. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Instead of cloaking it in, "I love my people.” Word? Erica: I love Black women. Yeah, bitch. Kenrya: Do you though? Which ones? Erica: Go get a job. I'm like nah or get a job and support us so I can be my Black man in this. Yeah. One of the things that stood out to me also in this, was how when the woman was speaking. She said, "My brothers were angry with me. They made me work in the vineyard so I neglected my complexion." Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Bigger than neglecting your complexion, I feel like this is something that happens. Women tend to, well not women, but people tend to throw themselves into service for other people and neglect themselves. You know, neglect themselves in the end. And then usually it takes something else happening for them to realize oh shit, I've been slaving away for this. Kenrya: Codependency. Erica: Ding, ding, ding. But yeah. I've been slaving away and doing all of this for other people and I've completely neglected myself. I think that's something that we all do, experience. Unfortunately, I think what's difficult about it is because as mothers and caretakers, it's a fine line because yeah, you got to take care of your kid. Kenrya: Yeah, they like to eat all the time. Erica: Girl. Kenrya: Three times a day at least. Erica: They're the worst. Kenrya: They be counting meals. Erica: Didn't you just eat? Kenrya: [inaudible 00:19:05]. Erica: Why are you growing so much? Your job, not your job. I don't want to say job, but what you do is take care of your kid, especially with us as single parents. I have a partner that supports and you do too. We're the primary caretakers. There's a fine line of taking care of everyone else and taking care of yourself. I used to say oh, I'm going to be selfish and do X, Y, and Z but it's not even selfish. Kenrya: It's not selfish. Erica: This is what I got to do to take care of myself. Kenrya: You want to take a bath. You want to do more than take a two-minute shower and sit in your tub for 30, 40 minutes, that's not being selfish. That's cleaning your ass. Erica: Exactly. Actually, just a couple of minutes ago, I was telling Kenrya that I've been going through lots of transition in my personal life. Today, I was like, I'm going to have to leave this kid at home. I just got to get away. I don't know what I'm going to do. Maybe I'll walk and go get some coffee. Maybe I'll do whatever. Kenrya: Oh, there's a gelato place up there. Erica: Oh, okay. Kenrya: It's good too. Erica: Maybe I'll do that. Kenrya: Yeah, anyway. Erica: But yeah, so it's one of those things where it's like do you know what? In order for this situation to continue to go as smoothly as it is, I need a break. Kenrya: That's right. Erica: I need to get away. I need to take care of myself. I also think about relationships, be it romantic, or whatever, where giving me stuff to do was a form of manipulation. Kenrya: It looks like what? Erica: Does that make sense? Kenrya: Tell me. Erica: I am a caretaker. This is the codependency in me, but I take of people. Kenrya: Ah, okay. Erica: I mean, don't want to say codependent. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: I know why you responded like that. One of my codependent traits is that I have OCD. I take care of people. I organize. I yada, yada, yada and I feel like there have been points in relationships where I got a little too independent, or a little too on my own, and so then my partner finds things that they need for me to do. Kenrya: For getting done. Erica: In order to keep me under their thumb. Kenrya: Been there, girl. I was making doctor's appointments like I'm a goddamn secretary. Erica: Yeah and nothing's wrong with being a secretary. Kenrya: For him, though. Erica: It's just like I'm your partner. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: You know. Kenrya: That's my thing. Erica: Yeah and then you look up and you're like, damn I poured all myself into this person and nothing into me. Kenrya: He over here full as hell. Erica: Full as hell or not even partaking in what I did because I've had guys that was like, "I need X, Y, Z." And so little codependent Erica, rush out and do it and they're like, "Oh, well, not yet." It's just like damn, I did put all this energy into this and just for you to be like "Eh, nah. I don't need it." It's wild to see that that shit go back to the Bible days. Kenrya: Right. Erica: Since the beginning of time. Also, she and you read this so beautifully. Kenrya: Oh, thanks. Erica: When she said that I am merely a rose from the land of Sharon, a lily in the valley. He was like, hold on boo. Kenrya: Nah boo. Erica: Nah, you're a rose among thorns. I think this goes to what we talked about with the I'm not like other girls or like, "Oh, this old thing. I'm just so plain." Kenrya: The false modesty of it all. Erica: Yeah, exactly. False modesty. That's what I'm going for. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: He was like, "Nah, nah boo. Don't be dimming your light. You're a fly little sister. Fly little sweet thing." I thought that was really cool. To me, this whole passage that we read was so amazing to see how the stuff that we do today and the ways that we think, has been going on since the beginning of time. Kenrya: The whole thing, every time it's he she, he speaks and she speaks where they're talking about each other, it's like the old Black man. I'm trying to get like you. The whole thing was them one-upping each other. Talking about how great they were and that really hit me. I'm like aww, y’all love each other. Erica: This is the Biblical version of that song, "You will never be nothing... My boo." Kenrya: What are you singing? Erica: All right. My boo. Kenrya: My boo. Erica: In my mind, this is two people on the other side of the door singing. Kenrya: Yes, singing. Erica: Doing Biblical prose. Yeah, it's just really dope to see how this has carried over. Kenrya: Over time, all the way to Usher songs. Erica: All the way to Usher songs. When picking this, I definitely tried to stick to more... So, the way that the entire chapter is written out, there's a few players. There's the woman, which is she speaks. The guy, he speaks and there's choruses. Kenrya: Right, the women. Erica: The group of women and then there's a group of dudes. Kenrya: Yeah, their friends. Erica: Her brothers I think. Kenrya: Oh, I don't think we read anything from the brothers. Erica: I don't think we read anything but I really tried to skip to. Kenrya: Yeah and then there's their friends which pulls from both sides I think. Erica: I really tried to stick to really just the woman speaking. There's a little bit of the guy speaking. Kenrya: We had to get a little bit of what he thinks. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: And let him big her up a little bit. Erica: I definitely tried to really focus on the woman's perspective of this just because that's what we're here for, women writers. I just wanted to throw that in. One thing I also thought was really interesting. I keep saying one thing because there's a lot of one things. There's a lot of I'm yours, you're mine, the possessiveness of it all. I found that really interesting because when you think Bible and you think men-women relationships in the Bible, you think man owning a woman. Well, not owning a woman, but you know Kenrya: Well, yeah. Erica: Yeah, the woman being the property of the man and that's it. Kenrya: Yeah, literally traded for goods. Erica: Cows. Here's a wife and a cow in exchange for that. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: I thought about the possession, the whole idea of possession. You're mine. I'm yours. It seems like it was a little more mutual. Kenrya: Yeah, it was never just I'm yours. She always followed it up, "And you're mine." I guess it doesn't bother me because it's mutual. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: It's not giving him all the ownership and the agency. I think really that's what this really speaks to is the agency of this Black woman is what speaks to me most in this whole thing. She's not just sitting here pining away for this man. She go out in the streets and is like looking for this joker. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: It's like telling her homegirls, "If you see him, tell him I'm weak." Erica: If you see him... Kenrya: Oh, girl. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: It was so beautiful. Well that, until she got beat up by the guards. Kenrya: Well, yeah there. Yeah. Erica: I mean you know, again, niggas going to nig and that was niggas nigging. Actually, that was the next part that I was... Kenrya: About the agency. Erica: I'm a little confused about this because so I ready in certain places, and these were very churchy websites, not really scholars. I mean they were churchy scholarly websites. I'm probably using the wrong terms, as opposed to just a pure scholarly website. It had a religious bent to it. That this book was written by a woman, and Solomon and they were going to marry, and that kind of thing. Kenrya: Oh, I had never seen any of that. Erica: However, reading this, I don't get that. Kenrya: It doesn't feel that way. Erica: It feels like it's just two people in love because if you're about to marry a man, why are you running around at night in the streets sneaking around. Kenrya: Right and well she never mentions at any point anything about them being married in the book. Is there? Erica: There's a part that I cut. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: In my Erica contemporary version. Kenrya: Abridged. Erica: The Erica abridged version. Erica Bible study version. There's Solomon like, "Hey, you're beautiful. I'm going to pick you. You're coming to my... You're going to marry me." Kenrya: But, Solomon is not the man in the story. Erica: I don't think he's the man in this story. Kenrya: No. Remember, she refers, she says, "My skin is dark like something or Solomon's tents." From what I read, it's a tribute, the writing is perhaps attributed to Solomon as the writer, but that he's necessarily a player in the story. Erica: Okay, see. This is us trying to work it out. Kenrya: Figure it out. We don't know. Erica: Because the part where she's like, "I'm in bed and I'm looking for man, so I get up and throw on clothes and run through the city looking for him." Honey. Kenrya: You going and looking for a man now? Erica: No, but I have. I mean, I thought about that lying in bed, scrolling a nigga’s Twitter feed, like what he doing tonight, you know? Which, yes, I have in the past. Kenrya: Have you? Erica: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kenrya: I don't know. Erica: I mean I'm not stalkerish. Well, I guess that is a little stalkerish. I definitely have had some not necessarily searching the streets for him, but just like oh, what is this man doing? Oh, I need to... I want to be a little part of everything. What's happening here? Kenrya: Yeah, yeah. I mean I have the are you on your way? I need you to be here now. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: You should come. Erica: That's very different. Kenrya: Oh, okay. Erica: I'm thinking about like you know? Kenrya: I'm just looking at the time. Erica: You ain't mine, I'm lustful. Kenrya: Oh, okay. Erica: I'm lusting over this man. So what's good? What are you doing tonight? You know? You can't come over, what you doing then? That kind of thing. Kenrya: More DM's sliding. Erica: Yeah. I think I'm a little past that right now in my life just because I am, I don't know if it's that I'm lazy. Kenrya: You got a lot going on. Erica: Yeah, or it's just I haven't found anyone that tickles my pickle. Kenrya: It's worth the interest. Yeah. Erica: At that point. I definitely have people that I'm interested in and want to know what's going on with them. But the oof, walking the streets looking for them, I'm ain't there yet. Kenrya: Well, but you also, as a grownup, just call him and say, "Hey, what you doing?" Erica: Yeah. I am definitely at the point where I say what I mean, I mean what I say. I am okay with the vulnerability of it all. If I want to see you, I want to see you, and I'm going to tell you I want to see you. I understand we're adults and we have reasons that we're not. Like I got shit to do tonight. You ain't got to tell me. I'm like, I can't. I got shit to do. Okay, I dig it. I get it. I'm also more like I pay attention to things more because I've always been a say what you mean, mean what you say kind of gal but I think ignored some of the, "I got to go and wash my hair." I'm like, "Oh, he got to wash his hair." When I'm like no bitch. You should've just been reading the fact that he's not interested in that kind of thing. Erica: I'm still consistently, say what you mean, mean what you say but I am much better now at reading between the lines. I also don't... I read between the lines but I also check-in and be like, "Hey, this is what I'm feeling. Is it true or am I misunderstanding you?" I always give people the opportunity to clear up what's unclear. It's difficult for some people because they're so used to operating in ambiguity. Kenrya: Conflict. Okay. Erica: Because that gives you a level of like, "Well, I never said we was together." That kind of thing. It's difficult for some people but again, that's one of those things where I'm like okay, you thrive off of ambiguity and so I'm not going to be a part of this. I'm not sure how we got here but, yeah. Kenrya: No, we were talking about whether or not you're running through the streets looking for a nigga. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: In part, I think it's because I'm in a relationship and so we set up all these expectations really early. And so, he asked me at one point when we were figuring it out, "How often do you want to see me?" I was like, "Well, how often do you want to see me?" Because it was still early and I wasn't ready to put myself out there. He was like, "I want to see you every day." I was like, "Oh, bet. Yeah, I want to see you every day, too." Then it just became anytime and it does happen where I worry that I'm being needy because I've been taught that to need someone or to want someone is equivalent to being needy and those are not the same thing. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I check myself by remembering that conversation when we point-blank laid out what our expectations were and what we wanted around spending time together. No, we don't see each other every day, but if I want him to spend the night four nights in a row, well then bitch, I say so. Erica: I was and we had this conversation earlier this week, those conversations are difficult. Well, they're not difficult. Actually, they're not difficult, but they're uncomfortable when you're not used to having them. Kenrya: Right. It's like a muscle. Erica: Yeah, yeah and you just got to work it more and more. Now that I am dating healthily, it's so much easier when you have those conversations upfront because then you know. Because I'm one of those people like, let me know the rules. Let me know the rules and I decide if this is what I... Kenrya: And stick to them. Erica: Give me all the information I need to know right now and based on that information, I'll decide if I want to play. If I want to play, I'm good because we got rules. Kenrya: Right. Erica: I get pissed when you break the rules. I was one of them kids like, "But, I'm following the rules and you're not. You're cheating." Kenrya: Like my child. Erica: Oh, my God. My gosh. [inaudible 00:34:19] on my nerves. Yeah, that was me. I definitely am like yo, when I know the rules, these are the rules we decide we're going to play by, then we going to play by those rules and that's great. If we need to come back together and readjust, I'm all for that too, but these are the rules that we've agreed to. I actually feel like an adult when I'm having these conversations and figuring out what one's boundaries are. It's not sexy. Kenrya: No, not usually. Erica: But it's necessary to help and make it healthy for all parties involved. It keeps everything from because I'm thinking about the relationships that I've set it up, that I've set up. You know, that we've had those conversations about parameters and that kind of thing. I think should these relationships end, it won't be horrible because it's this is what we agreed to. Kenrya: Right. Erica: If we don't want this anymore, let's check-in and say it. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Unless, you all fuck up and break some rules, then die nigga, die. Kenrya: But I mean, to me that's setting of parameters and boundaries, I think that oftentimes when people hear that, especially men, they think of it as preventing them from doing something, like it's restrictive. But, what I found is that it actually is freeing. Erica: I think that a guy that finds it restrictive, is not what I'm looking for. Kenrya: He's all some bullshit anyway. Yeah. Erica: Yeah, if you find us figuring out what is healthy for the two of us, a punishment or something like that, then- Kenrya: You should go do this with somebody else. Erica: Bro, I don't need, this is ain't where you need need to be because I need to know what's happening. That's how folks get hurt when you start assuming shit. Kenrya: Right. Erica: And being all loosey-goosey. So, yeah. This is steamy. Kenrya: It is. Erica: It gets real steamy. Kenrya: Yeah, if you pay close enough attention. Erica: Let them spread the aroma of my garden. Kenrya: Yep. My fingers are dripping with perfume. Erica: "The one I love may enter and taste the delicious fruits." I find it... It's just like yo, you all talking about juices, and fruits, and things. Kenrya: Yeah or all the juices, and the berries, and the oils. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Are going on. Erica: They had peaches and eggplants in the Garden of Eden, huh? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Her breasts are grapes. Erica: Yeah, well mine ain't grapes. Raisins at some point. Not grapes. Kenrya: Oh, stop it. Erica: Ripe raisins. Kenrya: That's not true at all. Erica: We're going to come back to the steaminess. I found it really funny how they pretty much have an argument about he came home and was like knock, knock. Let's get it on. She was like, "But, I took a shower." Kenrya: I already washed my feet, man. Erica: I already washed my feet. I got to get my feet dirty again? I was just like, yo. This is what happened? And then, she said, "All right, cool." Opened the latch, heart stood still, rose to the door, sorry, and he wasn't there. Kenrya: Yeah. Hands dripping. Erica: And then well yeah, go on. Hands dripping. It was just like yo, I found that such again, some nigga shit from all the way in the back. Kenrya: Well, but remember, I think that she said that was part of her dream, right? She was dreaming that that was happening. Erica: Yeah, yeah. Kenrya: So, maybe it's the fear of losing him that she was dreaming out or of not making, like missing that connection that she was dreaming about in that moment. I don't know. Erica: Yeah, but the feeling was so strong, that it caused her to get up and go looking for this Negro through the streets. Kenrya: And he wasn't there. Yeah. Erica: Then she ran into a bunch niggas that beat her up, which again, I was just like yo, this is horrible. And then she ends it by saying, "I'm weak with desire." Which can be sweet, but I'm like you just got your ass beat by a group of niggas. Kenrya: So, you're probably weak from that. Erica: Yeah, you're probably weak from that too. Oh, I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. Okay, so again, we go into the Biblical standards of beauty, and metaphors of beauty, which I found just so some of them are oh, this is so great. Some of them were just like this is weird. "His head is the purest gold. His hair is wavy, Black as a raven." You can't tell me that ain't no Black man. Kenrya: He got waves. Erica: What are you talking about? He got waves. he got a bitch seasick. "His eyes are a pair of doves bathing in a stream flowing with milk." So, off-topic, but kind of on topic. I remember in college, I was taking the metro, no, taking a bus back to school. You know that main bus that goes through main street? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: I'm standing in Chinatown, waiting to take that bus. This man comes over and he is like, "Girl, you are beautiful. Your eyes are so clear." Kenrya: I was like am I horse? What the fuck? Erica: I was like oh, he's had a long life of doing drugs where to him, what makes me sexy is that I have clear eyes. Kenrya: You got clear eyes. He's like, "Bitch, you ain't got glaucoma." Erica: You ain't got no glaucoma. You ain't got no red-eye. I mean, he'd probably see me now and be like damn hoe, you've been through some shit. But, yeah. "His arms are branches of gold covered with jewels. His body is ivory, decorated with sapphires. His legs are columns of marble on feet of gold." Kenrya: A nice leg, thigh, butt situation. Erica: Again, we here at The Turn On, we appreciate a solid undercarriage. Kenrya: We do. Erica: A solid- Kenrya: Okay, let's talk about this very briefly. Y'all, the guys are walking around with the super developed upper bodies, but the little chicken legs, don't do it. Erica: Please don't. No. Kenrya: Just squat. Erica: Just as much as you do upper body, let's work on them legs. Really. Kenrya: You can't help me if your legs is like toothpicks. Erica: Yeah and I shouldn't be able to fit your jeans. Kenrya: You know that happened to me once. Erica: And you're not a big chick. Kenrya: I am not. No, he put on my jeans and I was even littler then. Erica: I'm rolling my eyes, not on some maybe you're a man that likes a feminine look. Kenrya: Oh, no. I didn't give a shit about that. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: It didn't bother me that he tried them on. It was the fact that- Erica: That you can actually fit them. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: No offense against a smaller guy because do you know what? I might find a smaller guy to rock my world. Kenrya: I mean I was with this guy. It was just his legs were so skinny. Upper body, fantastic. Legs, lordy. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: You right on in my jeans. Erica: No. Kenrya: Yep. Erica: No. Not at all. Yeah, I need a... See, again, I like a man with a little fluff. Kenrya: You like, yes. Erica: I like a thicker gentleman but I do appreciate a good body. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: I do appreciate a good body. Kenrya: We know I do. That's my constant. Erica: Some shoulders to throw them legs over. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: Okay. Yeah, see look. "He stands there majestic like Mount Lebanon and its choice cedar trees." The calls back to the- Kenrya: Call back to the Old Testament when they was building and bringing cedar from Lebanon. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I was like I remember my Bible reading. Erica: Oh, you all want some strength strength, okay. This just reminds me she is describing a solid ass man. That's what I want. I want you to be mentally solid, but I need you to be physically solid because I'm not a little bitch. You going to have to be able to hold up all of this girth. I mean I'm not huge. Kenrya: You're not, no. Those two things go together, right? They should ideally. It'd be nice if you could be mentally solid, and emotionally solid, and physically solid. I guess that's the goal, right? Erica: We have this passage, "My darling has gone down to his garden of spices where he will feed his sheep and gather his lilies. What do you think he going. You think he's really going down to the garden of spices or was that a metaphor? Kenrya: Oh, yeah, I think it's a metaphor for oral sex. Erica: Okay. Yeah, I did too. I was like, "Oh, put it in your mouth." Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Said your motherfucking mouth. Okay, wait. That song was if you have a playlist of just... Kenrya: Oh, yeah. Erica: When we got to college, put this song on, complete banger. That song was it. Kenrya: That's on that list. Erica: “Back That Ass Up.” Kenrya: Cash money taking over for the 99' and 2000s on that list, yes. Erica: That kind of thing. I'm talking to my sister. She had never heard this song in her entire life. Kenrya: No way. She's only a couple years younger than we are. Erica: I think it's an east coast thing. Kenrya: We not from the east coast. Had you never heard that song in Cleveland? Erica: I can't remember. Kenrya: I mean not Cleveland. In your town. Erica: I can't remember but she thought it was a parody. You know how niggas be making up shit on Instagram? Kenrya: What? Erica: She was like, "That can't be a real song." I'm like, "Yo." I sent her the Apple music link. Kenrya: We were in high school when it came out? Erica: I think the song is old. Kenrya: I'm saying, high school. Erica: [crosstalk 00:44:41] rock, yeah. Kenrya: No, no, no. I think it came out when we were in high school, maybe eighth grade. Listen, we listened to that song all the time and then Mike Jones took it and turned it... You don't know Mike Jones. Erica: I know Mike Jones. Kenrya: Okay. He took that song and turned it into another song. It's a male version. Oh, I'm going to have to play it for you later. Erica: Okay, add it to the playlist. Kenrya: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Erica: We'll add that to the playlist. Kenrya: I mean we were very into that song. It has been a staple in various forms for me for probably two decades. Erica: And then, the follow-up which will get me turnt in a club is the good classic by my homey in Pink Cameron, “Suckin’ Or Not.” Kenrya: Oh, yeah. Erica: It is so misogynistic. Kenrya: He puts that shit out there, though he's direct. Erica: He's like, do you know what? Kenrya: He is telling you what the rules are. Erica: And I think that's why I appreciate the song because he's like, "This is what's on the table. My dick. You going to suck it or not?" Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: it's so horrible. it's so misogynistic. I was actually catching up on Blackish and it was this whole episode where they kept the running joke was that “Ain't No Fun,” is a problematic song. Kenrya: Yes. I just watched that last week because I'm also way behind. Erica: Yeah and I love- Kenrya: And Bow was in the car. She's like, "I can't help it." We have a history with that song. Erica: I mean, yeah, I love problematic music. I mean it's yeah, it's a guilty pleasure. Kenrya: We went on stage at trap karaoke and sang that song. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Like no problem. I am going to say it's problematic. It's just I love love. Kenrya: Listen, it is what it is. Erica: So yeah, put it in your mouth. Kenrya: It's the best that Warren G has ever sounded in his entire career. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: He does not have a better verse. I'm sure he didn't write it, but he delivered it well. Erica: No, I heard that Warren G was a writer because I was catching up on the mobile soundtrack. Kenrya: But, have you listened to a lot of his stuff? Erica: Well, here's the thing. We're not looking for the greatest rapper, the greatest lyricists. Kenrya: The delivery is so hot. Erica: It's a mood. It's a mood, I'm sorry. A mood. Kenrya: Yes. Erica: That. What's the song, “Indo Smoke” from the what's the soundtrack? It was one of the South Central ass movies. Are you high yet? Kenrya: I don't know that song. Erica: You've never heard “Indo Smoke”? Kenrya: I don't think so. Erica: Bitch, we are going to ride out to “Indo Smoke” later today because it is definitely one of those summertime groovy ass. Oh, this is perfect for this. You know, we're going to smoke some weed in your car and ride out to “Indo Smoke.” The kids will be upstairs doing crafts. Kenrya: And [inaudible 00:47:26]. Erica: Okay. Damn. My bad. Yeah, that was definitely a put in your mouth. I sound like my pastor when I go back to say, "We really encourage you to read the entire book." It's not long. Kenrya: It's not. We couldn't do the whole thing, so we did have to do excerpts. Erica: Yeah, but it's just beautiful. We close out our reading with him and her going on and on about how I'm yours, you're mine. You desire me. Just getting good and nasty and I love it. It just reminds me of those songs in the 80s where they end with a good, "If this world was mine." Type joint, where they just- Kenrya: Going back and forth. Erica: Going back and list. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And so it was just a delightful ending to it all. Kenrya: Didn't she say, "If the flowers are out, let's go have sex there." Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Probably. Kenrya: There's also a big up to outdoor situations. Erica: Oh, I love some of the outdoor sex. Beach sex I think we've talked about that is not. Kenrya: No, I've never done that because it seems like it won't be great. Erica: In dawn let's slip out and see if grapevines and fruit trees are covered with blossoms and when we are there, I'll give you my love. Kenrya: Yep. Erica: Damn. I have stored up for you all kinds of tasty fruits. Kenrya: Tasty fruits. Erica: I love it. Kenrya: I'm going to start calling it tasty fruits. Erica: Yeah. Do you know what? We are now calling giving some good love, giving you some tasty fruits. Kenrya: Tasty fruits. Erica: If your thing was a fruit, what would it be? Kenrya: It's delicious and nutritious. Some of them are nasty. Something that's sweet and juicy. Erica: Yeah. I was so like. Kenrya: Oh, like a perfectly ripe nectarine right at the beginning of June when they're oh, yeah. Erica: I was told, "Your pussy is like an orange. It's just squeezy and juicy." I was just like- Kenrya: Okay. Erica: All right I'll take that. I will take that. Yeah, an orange. A good ’round the way filet orange. Kenrya: Like it. Erica: Not the ones with the thick skin. Kenrya: No, the one's that's really easy to... Erica: Again, this orange, if you got the right hand, you can open it quickly. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: This takes me to my bigger question about here we have this book of the Bible that is clearly about sex and a romantic sex. Not that bullshit, this is the love the Lord has for the church. Girl, the Lord ain't churching nobody with some juicy fruits. Kenrya: Well, yeah. I was reading that is how folks have traditionally tried to dissect this book is to say that it is symbolic of the Lord's love for his followers, and the Spirit. But, in more modern times, folks are like, "That's some bullshit." Erica: Even if it’s symbolic, you used sex. Kenrya: Sexual language. Erica: To show symbolism. Kenrya: Right. Erica: It's kind of like with the whole shepherd and stuff. Yeah, you all use shepherd and sheep because niggas was doing shepherds and sheep shit. I mean, I think again, I feel like the whole idea that this is a story symbolic of the Lord's love for the church. I feel like that's bullshit. Even if we were to continue with that argument, niggers doing sex shit. Kenrya: It's still that they chose to use sexual metaphors in order to do that. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: Because people have sex. Erica: Exactly. Kenrya: If they are not asexual, then they are probably having sex in some way and hell, asexuals still have self-sex. It's all sex. Erica: It's just sex is happening. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Even back in the Bible times. Somebody's probably cringing every time I say, the Bible times. Kenrya: The Bible times. Some would say that we are always in the Bible times. Erica: Do you know what? You right. Look at God. Okay, when you were growing up, what were your thoughts about because I feel you have thought... I feel like growing up you have very ideas and thoughts and about one thing. The thing that makes you more of an adult is when you figure out to merge those. Kenrya: How those things can intersect. Erica: Yeah, how those things intersect. What were your thoughts about sex and religion growing up? Kenrya: I don't think I had any. I mean I didn't grow up in a super churchy household. I've written about this a bit. In my home, my father was very, "You need to know about all religions." When Jehovah Witnesses knocked on the door, my daddy invited them in and we had Bible study. I've been to Kingdom Hall. I've been to a Temple. I've been to a lot of different places because my dad was very, "God is everywhere. Let's go get some." Do you know what I mean, kind of a situation? I think because he was loosey-goosey on that and I didn't start going to church regularly until I was in high school and that was of my own volition like I didn't even go with my family. There was no grandmother telling me that touching myself was not of God and it was dirty. There was no don't have sex until you... That that's something that you save for husband. I literally didn't get any of that from the people around me. I think that the most that I would've known about it is just media in terms of what that looks like. I can't say that it ever, not in any direct way inform me. I never ever had the idea that I was going to wait until I was married to have sex. Erica: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: What were your thoughts around your virginity? Was it something sacred? Kenrya: It was but it wasn't sacred in terms of religion. I was 18 when I lost my virginity. For me, it was more of this, I am this nerdy ass idealist and this is the way that it has to go. It was prom weekend. It was with my boyfriend who was trash. I rented a hotel room and lied to told my daddy that all my friends were staying at this hotel. It had to be the whole what I thought a movie would look in terms of losing my virginity. Of course, it was terrible but I had this whole plan in my head and so it was more about me feeling like I was emotionally ready, and having hit this specific number. I felt like 18 was grown enough. That I wasn't doing something that it wasn't emotionally ready for, in my mind. Kenrya: I was very logical about it. I think that no matter who I had been with at that point because I had decided that that was the way that I should lose my virginity that that was what it was going to be. It was never this whole thing about oh God is going to feel a way about me doing this at this age, or in this stage. That never really played into it for me. What about you? Erica: I grew up with a very religious, I mean not like crazy religious but definitely went to church every Sunday kind of grandmother. It's hard to say I grew up in the church because now I have a partner who grew up in a church. I'm like oh, I didn't grow up in the church. Kenrya: That's a different life. Yeah, yeah, that's that you at church every Wednesday. You at church every Tuesday. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: You had church all day Sunday for every service life. Erica: Yeah am like oh, I didn't grow up in a church like that. I grew up in the church lite, L-I-T-E. Lite, a Crystal Lite. I mean when I lost my virginity, maybe this was the church lite speaking to me, but I didn't think much about oh, the Lord is going to kill me or something like that. I mean, I'm going to go to hell because of that because I also grew up in a home where we were surrounded by LGBTQ people. So, the religion that I got as a child, was very much love all people. Kenrya: Inclusive, yeah. Erica: Yeah. That kind of religion and not the fire and brimstone. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: So yes, on one hand, I was like oh, I don't think God would be happy with me on this. I also was on the like, God loves everybody. I ain't kill nobody. We good. You know? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: I think I was a little less freaked out about losing my virginity because again, you all heard the story, marching band. Kenrya: Waterbed. Erica: Waterbed. As I get older, I think about how I want to teach my son about sex and how this jives with religion because I feel like now I'm a lot more spiritual and religious. I mean, I hate saying religious because that connotes Jerry Fallwell. I'm a lot more religious now than I was growing up or even as a kid. As a young or even as a kid. Kenrya: In your early... Yeah. Erica: I think I want my child to look at sex the way you did. Like, am I ready for it? Is this something that I want to do? I mean, I don't think he needs to... I think you may... critiquing your shit. You grew up a lot faster than you should have. Kenrya: Right. Erica: And so you made this decision from a 30-year-old, 18-year-old frame of mind. Kenrya: I did. We had condoms with spermicide. We had separate monoxidyl. Whatever that stuff. I was so serious. I was like, "I got college to go to. You ain't going to knock me up." I had the whole situation together. Erica: Yeah so I don't need you to because your situation was you all know what you don't even know kind of thing. Do you understand I'm saying? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: You swore you knew it all and she was like, "Oh, poor baby. You don't know shit." I don't want my kid to necessarily be there but I also want him to understand that- Kenrya: The implications of joining with someone in the [crosstalk 00:58:13]. Erica: It's not like you're about to make some soul ties with the mother fucker or something like that. It's just you need to feel like you're ready for sex and the consequences that come from it. There's a lot more than just am I going to get her pregnant, or am I going to get a cheesy dick? Kenrya: Ew. Erica: Yeah, and then also as I become a lot more liberal in my sex because I do it all you all. I do a whole lot. I mean, I think you all get that from listening to me but I have fun. Kenrya: You do. I was just thinking about it. I think we haven't really talked about the full extent of what partners look like. I think so far, it probably sounds like you only have sex with men and that's not true. Erica: That's not true. Yeah, I like to swim in all ponds. We'll say that. Yeah and so I think even as I get more, as I deepen my spirituality, I also get more into my sexual freeness. I don't think that there's necessarily a need to jive. You want to be like does this fit in with these other held beliefs? I think right now I'm at a point where I don't think it necessarily needs to fit in. Reading the Song of Solomon, it is like look, this is a piece of this couple's life. Meaning, sex is a part of it. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And we only got a slice of it because there might have been juicy fruits. There might have been pears, pineapples, blueberries. Kenrya: Watermelons. Erica: All types of juicy fruits. Yeah and I'm debating if I want to share this because it might be sharing too much about someone else, so I'm going to hold off. Kenrya: Okay. Erica: I mean, I don't mind sharing my shit but I don't want to share other people's shit. Kenrya: Yeah, yeah. No, you don't want to tell peoples stories. Erica: Yeah, as I grow, and do more in my sexual exploration, I don't have a feel of oh, God's going to get me. Kenrya: Yeah, I don't think I've ever felt that before but that's not the God I know. Erica: Yeah. The God I know is a God that loves all and knows that we all fuck up. It was interesting because at church a few weeks back, the pastor did a sermon on the environment, climate change. Kenrya: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Erica: It was such a good sermon. One of the things he said, he was like, "What makes a sin a sin is what is the intent, is what's behind it." Being an adulteress is a sin because you're treating this person as if they're for you and you only. You're treating this person as if they exist to be your sexual object and you're not thinking about the fact that this person has a wife and kids. That there's more, that you're treating this person as you are here for the sake of giving my pleasure. I get that. I mean, he didn't go as far as to say, "You all can go out and fuck all willy nilly." Erica: I get that because I feel like sex is more than just I mean, it's intimate. It's an intimate act but it's also I don't want to cheapen it. I'm thinking this through as I talk to you all. You all might feel like I'm going all over the place because I am but we'll there, so just stay on this train with me. I feel like sex is pleasure between two that's shared. Kenrya: Or more. Erica: Yeah, especially for me. Sex is between people that share, that's a shared pleasure. I'm giving you pleasure. You're giving me pleasure. We're sharing this pleasure. I don't want to go as far, I mean I do think sex is intimate, but it's not the ultimate intimate act. Kenrya: Which we talked about a bit a couple of episodes ago. Erica: Yeah. I feel like intimacy is built over time also. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: I don't want to yeah, I look at my sexual experiences as spiritual also. Sometimes it's nasty but sometimes it's- Kenrya: Yeah. And that it takes you out of yourself but also puts you in yourself, at the same time. Do you know what I mean? Erica: Yeah. You're such a writer. Kenrya: Where you're so grounded in what you're doing in that moment but also connected to everything else that's going on. It's a beautiful, yeah. Erica: Beautiful. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I want to go back a little bit because when you were talking about what pastor said about the intent is what makes a sin. I find that an interesting reading because as somebody who does social justice and racial justice work, we talk about how intent is not what's important, it's the impact. To take this to, I mean I'll take it to a nonsexual place and then to a sexual place. It's when a white person says, "Well, I didn't mean to make you feel like I was a racist. I didn't mean to call you a nigger. I didn't mean that you're nigger." Well, nigga, your intent might not have been racist, but your impact was. Do you know what I mean? You claim that you didn't intend to hurt me, but you did. To take to a sexual place where these men, typically, say that they didn't intend to sexually abuse, or harass, or otherwise, impune somebody else. They say that that wasn't their intent but the impact was that it was traumatic for that person. What we speak to is the way that people are affected by the things that we do in the world. Even with my daughter, she'll say, "Ah, momma. That hurt. When you said that, that hurt me." I don't say, "Oh, I didn't mean to hurt you." I say, "I'm so sorry that I hurt you." It's not about what I meant to do, it's about how she felt. I just wanted to speak to that language. That really made my ears perk up a little bit. Erica: Yeah, no. That's a really good way to think about it. Yeah, I'll take that. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Yeah. That's something I got to think about. Kenrya: It works really well to think about that framework when you're apologizing. Erica: Yeah. I think that's also a great framework for men to think about. Well, for people to think about when they go into sexual experiences with people because yes, the intent might not be to harm but if you think this through... This reminds me of a situation I had with a partner. We were conversing, had plans, that kind of thing. It ended up where he suggested something that I was like, "Yo, wow. What the fuck?" It wasn't anything sexual or crazy. It was just a situation. Kenrya: Girl, he was trying you. Erica: Yeah, I feel like, "You trying to play me." I don't think he necessarily was and so I don't think the intent of trying to play Erica or to pull some crazy. I don't even think he was trying to pull some crazy shit, it was just like, "Dude, had you thought this through about how I might have felt?" I mean, this is still kind of new so I don't think he quite gets everything about me. This might have been a situation that someone was okay with. Knowing me, and knowing how I roll, I was like no, this ain't a situation I'm trying to be in. It's interesting because I don't think the intent for harm, or anything crazy to happen was there, but it's just had you thought about this a little bit more, you wouldn't have suggested it. Kenrya: Right. Erica: Yeah, I find that's a really good way of thinking about when you're going into a situation, you might be okay with it but just do a little deeper thinking about the person you're with, their headspace, and what they might want. We didn't talk. You didn't tell me or maybe I missed it. What are your thoughts about what are you going to teach your child about sex? Kenrya: Yeah. I think I'm going to teach her with regards to religion and sex, it's the same thing as religion and everything. We are children of God. There is nothing that God has created you to do that is sinful. Do you know what I mean? There's nothing that I think I've heard people frame all types of things as being a sin. Using shit, there's people I'm sure that think this show is sinful. I think it's more about just making sure that she's pleasing to God, and that she is kind to other people, and that she—do you know what I mean? To me, that is more of what that is. I'm not a hardliner Leviticus said, "Don't pierce your ears and don't eat shellfish." Erica: Also this makes me think just a bigger picture about so I did the read the Bible in a year app thing. Well, I didn't read it- Kenrya: I have three times gone through and not finished. Erica: It's like September, November. Kenrya: Heathen. Erica: And then it starts back in October again. Kenrya: It's go. Yes, the end of the year and then things get hectic and then I fall off and so I start over. I know the Old Testament real well. Erica: It is very difficult for me to get through the Old Testament. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: It is very difficult. Kenrya: It's tough. Erica: Actually, our church was supposed to have a Bible study. It didn't really go as deep as I wanted it to. It's very difficult for me to digest the Old Testament. Primarily because people still use that as a foundation for certain things. Kenrya: Right, even though the New Testament is a whole new animal. Erica: Yeah and so it's a very tough piece of work to swallow and then you combine that- Kenrya: Not to mention Numbers. Erica: And then you combine that with sex is a sin, yada, yada, yada. I'm like yo, we was wilin’, we was wilin’ in the Old Testament. Kenrya: Yeah. I mean giving up our daughters to be raped because it was preferable to that then someone having sex, gay sex. All of these things. It's so hard. Remember we were struggling trying to find really good womanist interpretations of the Bible. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: And there just aren't a lot of... There's really no devotionals that really do that. Erica: I need a good womanist devotional. Kenrya: Because not just feminist because that white lens but a feminist reading of this would likely gloss over the I am dark and beautiful. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Do you know what I mean? Erica: Or no, they would use the, "I am dark yet beautiful." Translation. Kenrya: And use that to justify their fairness that white is beautiful. That and then a lot of it for me is about shoring up the way that she feels about herself and her body. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: I think that will inform because I guess it has informed a lot of the way that I've related to people. Having that firm foundation in who she is, and like we talk about masturbation, about how self-pleasure is not just okay, but it is good, and have her enter into any type of relationships that she would have in sexual nature with other people with that grounding of who she is, and what's pleasurable to her will be really important. The third part is consent, which I have been working with her on since forever. Erica: Consent with children is just so, it's so simple yet difficult because the way that kids play is I constantly, I'm like a broken record with keep your hands to yourself. Keep your hands to yourself. Keep your hands to yourself. And bigger than the fighting thing, it's just this is your body. People aren't allowed to touch it unless you give them permission. Kenrya: Right. I think to me, the simple part of it is when you boil it down to the autonomy of it. What I tell her when we were going to see a dermatologist, and she was in a gown, and they wanted to look at the eczema that was on your bottom. I said, "Hey, you get to say whether or not she can look at you so is it okay if she looks and touches you." And she said, "Yes." And taking every opportunity to remind her that she gets to decide who touches her body. When they're fighting, that's your body, that's their body. You get to decide but let's not touch each other in ways that aren't gentle. Kenrya: When it's with her and her friends all over each other, reminding them of that. When it comes down to, I'm forgetting another example of when I always bring in the autonomy part of it. It'll come back to me. I think that there are lots of moments because as you said, kids are always in each other's faces, to remind them that they get to make those choices from a super early age so that hopefully they don't get boxed into those places a lot of us as older women have, where we found ourselves not really feeling like we had the agency to tell somebody to get off of us. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Because we weren't taught. Oh, hugs. That was the thing. I don't make her hug people. If someone wants to hug her, I ask her if she wants to. I give her the choice and sometimes she says no. She ain't got to. I'm never forcing my kids to hug anybody and it's not just not hugging men, it's not hugging anybody if she doesn't want to. That's her body. She don't have to have somebody all up in her area like that. Erica: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. Kenrya: Giving her from the very beginning, letting her know that she can use her voice to say no from the consent standpoint, has been super important. I think those are the three things that rock for me in terms of preparing her for that later. Erica: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree. Actually, we went to a new doctor yesterday. I thought it was really dope. An older Black woman and my son is hitting puberty age so she had to check his parts. Kenrya: Oh, yikes. Erica: She was like, "I'm just looking to see is he approaching puberty." Because they look different. I did not know that. She looks at me and she's like, "Mom, can I check him?" Kenrya: Good. Erica: And I said, "Yes." And then she looks at him and she's like, "No one is allowed to touch you unless you say you can and your mom says you can." She said, "It's fine. Can I look?" He was like, "Yeah." I just thought I mean, it wasn't like a huge thing. Kenrya: Yeah, it's just worked into what you do. Erica: I think that's really dope because I don't think that every parent says that to their kids. I mean and I don't think it's something that- Kenrya: Because I don't think people think about it always. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Folks often are not super intentional about the way that we raise our kids. Erica: Yeah, you just do what and so I thought it was great that she said that in front of both of us, and then it was also a check to parents that don't do that. If you don't ever hear it, you heard it here. Kenrya: Here. Right here. Erica: I thought that was really dope. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Okay. Do you have any more to add to this conversation? Kenrya: No, just that I'm really glad that we did this. I thought it was a great idea. Hats off to you. Erica: Thank you. Kenrya: We talked about a few episodes ago about how this show will not always be what you think it's going to be and that our whole thing of sex and... really holds. It's not just sex and talking about a body part, or sex and talking about anal. It's sex and religion. It's sex and patriarchies. It's sex and race. And that this is a great episode of highlighting that. Erica: Great. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Well, thank you very much. Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Turn On. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And this is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes making it Biblically clap. Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B’Lystic. The theme song is from Brazy. We want to hear from y’all! Send your book recommendations and all the burning “sex, and-related” questions you want us to answer to [email protected]. And please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, follow us on Twitter at The Turn On Pod and Instagram at The Turn On Podcast and find links to books, transcripts, guest info and other fun stuff at The Turn On Podcast dot com. And remember, we're part of the Frolic Podcast Network; you can find more shows you’ll love at Frolic.media/podcasts. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon. Peace. |
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be. Archives
September 2022
Categories
All
|
RSS Feed