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Amazon Music | Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Pandora | Radio Public | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | YouTube CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In this episode of The Turn On, Erica and Kenrya read "His Only Wife" by Peace Medie and talk about family bullshit, the lessons we teach our children about love, the sexiness of confident decision making and refusing to make "the best" out of a bad situation. RESOURCES
ADVERTISEMENT Buzzsprout The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get off. [theme music] Erica: Hey, y’all. So, welcome to this week's episode of The Turn On. This is your lovely host, Erica and Killa. So, we are going to be reading “His Only Wife,” written by Peace Medie? Peace Medie, does that sound about right? Kenrya: Yeah. That's how I've been seeing it. Erica: Okay, Peace Medie. Written in September of 2020. So, sit back, relax, get your wine, weed, whatever you need and enjoy. Kenrya: “His Only Wife,” by Peace Adzo Medie. When I walked into the bedroom, Eli was sitting at the foot of my bed, a towel around his waist. He smiled and patted the space beside him when he saw me and I gingerly did as he asked. "Are you okay?" He asked. "Yes." "Are you okay with me staying?" he asked, clarifying his question. His hands on his thighs. "Yes," I said again. But what was I going to say? He was my husband and he was sitting on my bed almost naked. He hadn't dried himself properly and drops of water clung to the hair on his chest. And now, the rose fragrance of my Lux soap mixed with his scent so that he smelled like both of us combined. Kenrya: He interrupted my observations with a kiss that began on my lips and trailed over my dress down to my belly. I jumped off the bed when he began to move lower knocking his head with my knee in the process. "Sorry, sorry," I said mortified. "What's wrong?" he asked, rising to his feet before me. One hand rubbing his forehead. He looked concerned. "Nothing," I said. Then added, "Please, I want to switch the light off." "Okay," he said reluctantly and watched me as I scooted to the bedside to switch off the lamp. I lingered there after the room went dark, contemplating my next move. I soon sensed him behind me and then felt his hand tugging at my zipper. I stood still as he peeled my dress off, his hand touching, caressing. Kenrya: When I was naked before him, even though the air conditioner was running at full blast, I felt hot as though I had a fever. And this time, when he kissed me, his lips made contact with my skin, my nipples, my belly and that place between my legs where I lose all sense of myself, where everything but my body ceases to exist. I forgot about the hair, about having not showered before, it was only after I lay on his damp chest after he had slid into me and caused me to moan so loudly that I feared the security people at the gate had heard me. After he had chanted my name while moving inside me, his eyes half closed, his breath ragged. It was only after all of this that I wondered if he had expected me to be a virgin. I hope not. Erica: Hey, all. So, Kenrya, thank you so much for that wonderful reading. Okay. So, “His Only Wife” written by Peace Medie, September, 2020. Let's give a quick synopsis. You want to do it? You want me to... Kenrya: It's all you, playa. Erica: Oh, all right. So, then there's this chick, her name is Afi. She has a mom, of course, most people do. So, she has a mom. Her dad passed away when she was young and her and her mom have been essentially cared for by her uncle, her dad's brother. Also, this book is set in Ghana. So, when her dad died, tradition says that her dad's brother essentially takes care of the family. Her dad's brother is a fucking jerk. And it's not the best situation for her and her mom. Erica: Her mom has this homegirl that she worked for. And her homegirl has a son. So, her mom's homegirl goes to her mom as like, "Look, I want to arrange a marriage between my son and your daughter." So, the book opens with this chick at her wedding day, except this man ain't even there. I mean, he agreed to get married to her, but it was very clear that he's just doing this to appease his mom. Erica: His brother stands in for him. And then, he calls on speaker phone, he's like, "Yeah. I'm away on travel. Have fun at this wedding. And I'll see you when I see you." So, there's that. So then, they get married. She gets married to him through his brother, whatever. Kenrya: It's a wedding in absentia. Erica: Okay. Yeah. So, that happens. And so then, Afi and her mom moved to the big city and essentially they're set up in this apartment and it's like, "Okay. This is your apartment as a couple. Get it set up, start your life. Your husband will be there to meet you." And then, hijinks ensue dot dot dot. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Is that the best way? Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: There's a lot that happens, but I don't want to get too far. Kenrya: How much do we say? Yeah. Erica: Yeah. And I'll be very honest. I'm probably going to give some spoilers. Not many, but it's hard to tell a story without it, right? Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: Okay. So, first, when I read the description of the book, I think they described it as a fairytale. No, she gets swept away into a fairytale life because that's how it's sold to her. The family's like, "He's super rich. He's super handsome. You'll be his wife. You get to move to the city and be like this." Kenrya: Have a new life. Erica: Have a new life. Yeah. She is really interested in... Kenrya: She makes- Erica: I was going to say clothes construction. I know there's a better term for it. Kenrya: She's a- Erica: Yeah. She's a fashion designer. And so, she was doing work in the city... I mean, in her village, but now she's in the city and he has friends and family and is super connected. So, on the strength of his name, she gets a job at this amazing fashion designer’s company. And she's her assistant or something like that. So, yeah. It's sold as a fairytale and her whole family is in her ear the entire fucking time like, "This is perfect for you. This is perfect for you." For two reasons: one, her uncle who is just horrible, right? Kenrya: I hate that nigga. Erica: Yeah. He was... Kenrya: From the beginning. Erica: From the beginning. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: He treated her family... Her and her mom as an afterthought. But then, when this happened, she became the cash cow and it was like, "Okay. I took care of you, how are you going to take care of us?" And he would do stupid shit like... Kenrya: Showing up- Erica: Showing up. Kenrya: And not leaving until they gave him money. Erica: Dumping his kids on them. Remember that? Yeah. So, the whole... Kenrya: He didn't even treat her as a... He wouldn't even let them stay with him after her dad died. He was a piece of shit. Erica: Yeah. So, there was that. He was treating them like shit. And so, her uncle was like, "This is more money. Go do it." Her mom is like, "You get to be..." Was there a thing of disgrace? Kenrya: Well, she had a relationship with the mother of her new husband. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: And she's the one who basically took them in and took care of them after the father died. And so, for her being able to supply a wife felt like payback for all the ways that this woman had helped her over the years. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: And so, she felt like she'd be disgraced within her church circle and within the community if her daughter didn't take advantage of this opportunity that was put in front of her. Erica: Yeah. And you mentioned a church circle, reminded me of a part of the story because... Yeah. There was all this pressure on her by the family to do something, to marry this man. And then, you mentioned the church circle. I guess this is a spoiler, but whatever. So, part of the reason why he's not there is because this man got a whole ’nother mistress. Kenrya: Wife. Erica: Yeah. Common law, right? Or whatever. They're not married, but that's his wife. Kenrya: No, they were married, but they were divorced or something. He filed paperwork. The story is that they were married, but then he dissolved it, is the story that was passed down. Erica: Oh, okay. And that's another thing. It was... Kenrya: There's a lot of versions of stories. Erica: It was written in book. So, it seemed like she made up something, I made up something. But yeah. The whole situation was just well, he had this chick and this happened and this happened. So, it was a bunch of telephone about what's really going on. But long story short, she goes into the big city with her mom. She has a driver and this amazing condo and she just lives alone, waiting for her husband to show up. Erica: And I found it interesting. And I think I've seen this in relationships that I've had. I've seen this in relationships around me. His family totally co-signed on his fuck shit just for the sake of him getting a woman that they approve of. I was talking to this chick who was telling me about how she was dating this guy and his mother was like, "Girl, get out." Yeah. She was like, "This ain't where you need to be. I have a nice son, but this ain't for you." Kenrya: Damn. Erica: And I was like, "Damn. That's pretty selfless of the mom to be like..." Because there are a lot of times that families are like, "Yeah, girl. He's the best." Because they want him off their payroll. Kenrya: Listen, I had somebody tell me, "Oh, I'm so glad you're here so you can take care of him now." And I was young and dumb. Erica: "Yeah. I'll take care of him." Yeah. No, that was... Kenrya: Thought it was a joke. It was not a joke. Erica: At all. And so, every time there was a disappointment or some fuck shit. I was going to say... The whole marriage was some fuck shit, but it was very quiet fuck shit. There wasn't like any... I'm out in the street, cussing a nigga out fuck shit. So, the family was like, "It's okay. You'll be fine." Which made me think... So, at some point the husband, Eli, does show up and he had enough... He kept giving her crumbs that kept making her hope and think that more would happen. And even as I was reading the book, I was really rooting for Eli at one point. And then, I'm like, "Wait, he's a jerk. What the fuck?" Kenrya: For him to get it together and be who she wanted him to be. Erica: Yes. But then, I was like... I mean, she wrote really good characters because who the fuck roots for the villain? And he was the villain. Kenrya: I don't know if he was the villain. Erica: I mean, his whole family was the villain, but he was a villain. Kenrya: His mama, to me, was the villain. It's interesting. Erica: But he went along with that shit. Kenrya: Oh, but then... Yeah. Erica: He went along with that shit. Kenrya: I just remembered the end. Erica: He went along with that shit and he went along with giving her hope. It would be different if they got together and he was like, "Look, this situation, my family's fucking driving me crazy. So, here we are, you can live this life. I'll continue to care for you, but this is what it's going to be." I would've been like, "Cool." Kenrya: Cool. Erica: But he was on this, I'm going to sell you this dream. And so, to me, that's what made him villain. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And this happens a lot of times, granted you weren't the one pulling the trigger, but you definitely were the one sopping up all the rewards of this fucked up situation. And so, yeah. That definitely made him the villain in my eyes, which is why when I was rooting for him to get his shit together. I was like, "Wait, bitch. I can't do this. You're on the wrong team." Kenrya: "What am I doing?" Erica: And it also made me wonder about Eli's mistress, Mona... Mistress, wife, the other chick. It made me think about her side of the story. What was she being told? Kenrya: I'm sure she was being told half truths the entire fucking time. Erica: Yeah. I mean, on one hand, yes, I do... It's hard because the way his family and friends talked about her made me feel like she wasn't the type of character that would be down for some fuck shit. That wouldn't even believe half truths that would be fed to her. Kenrya: Yeah. But I don't actually think that the way that they represented her was authentic to who she was. I think it was this story that they put together to make her seem unpalatable because there's another character who actually has met her and she was like, "She's great. She's not this terrible bitchy ‘don't come near my child, don't speak to me’ person that she is being portrayed to be." Erica: Yes. And I understand that this was all coming from a “we hate her” lens. But even though we hate her lens, reading what they were saying she did, through the lens of we hate her. To me, it just sounded like she was a very independent, I'm not going for bullshit kind of woman. Kenrya: She stood up for herself. Erica: Simple as that. She stood up for her herself. Kenrya: Yeah. And they didn't like that shit. Erica: What'd you say? Kenrya: And they ain't like that shit. They wanted somebody they could run. Erica: Exactly. And so, for that reason, I feel like she was probably giving that nigga the business when he got home. Because when he spent a significant period of time, was she pissed at him and left? Or was she just on vacation? Kenrya: She was out of the country. Erica: I thought it was on some, "I'm gone, I need some space." Type shit. Kenrya: Again. I think that there were so many lies. I think she was legitimately just out of the country, but they made it seem as if she was fleeing. I think that... It can be hard when people are constantly fucking lying, but I just feel like it became clearer and clearer that you really couldn't trust anything that anyone in his family said. Yeah. Including him. Erica: Yeah. And there was this whole... We're together for the sake of the kids. That's what Eli was telling Afi like, "My kid's sick and we're together for the sake of the kids." I have heard that from a number of men where they're like, "We're together for the sake of the kids." And some women. And I'm like, "Do you truly believe that?" And I do think some people truly believe that it's better just to be together and have an arrangement per se, than just being apart and happy. Kenrya: Sounds terrible to me. Erica: Do you think people really believe that? Kenrya: Yeah. I know some people right now who are with their people who they like well enough, but aren't necessarily in love with them because they feel like they want to give their children this two parent household. In a lot of cases, those people didn't have that growing up. And so, they have this idea that that is somehow better for their children. And I'm speaking specifically right now, some folks who are not at each other's throats all the time, but aren't really... Erica: In love. Kenrya: Yeah. But they're like, "Well, we'll do this until the kids is gone. And then, we can figure out what to do after that." And then, experienced people who use it in the way that I feel like Eli was where it's like, "I am using this as my cover story to continue to not give you what you need and what you're asking for. And still be able to spend time and be a life of this person who I claim I don't want to be with because we have this child and I can use that relationship as a pawn." Right? Kenrya: But yeah, I do think that there are some people who think that that is better. But I know, for me, the thing that made me leave past relationships is I did not want my child to think she had to settle. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: For less than. Erica: I want my child to see happiness. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And joy and love. And even if it's just me loving on myself, I want you to grow up in a home like that. Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. And kids aren't stupid. Erica: I met a guy, he has a fucking three month old and was on that shit. I was like, "Nigga, you got a long fucking way." Kenrya: Oh, my God. Erica: Yeah. I think that was more his story he was telling himself and thinking, "I gave a fuck about." Like, "Nigga, no. Because one, either you're married or two, you can't make a strong decision and stick with it." Either way, I ain't fucking- Kenrya: Also, three months. Erica: Right? Kenrya: I don't want nobody that's got a three month old because that's a huge time commitment. And you're going to have to spend a lot of time with your ex. So, you should just focus there for a while. Erica: Did tell you about the guy I matched with that had the kid. Kenrya: I don't think so. Erica: So, I was on the apps, matched with this guy. We're talking. I'm like, "Oh, you got kids?" He said, "Yeah, I got a daughter. She was just born." Kenrya: Oh. Erica: And then, he went into this like, "Oh, but we're not together." And I'm like, "That is the last of my... Even if y’all was together, you have an infant. So, there ain't much time for lovey dovey shit." So, that ain't even my concern. My concern is this chick just pushed a whole fucking baby out. Her entire life is consumed with this child and your ass out here on apps. And I was talking to him- Kenrya: Like fucking Lawerence on “Insecure.” Erica: Yes. And I was talking to this guy about it and he was like, "Yeah. Well, at that age, there's not much for it. The kid is really dependent on the mom." Or something. I'm like, "Okay." Kenrya: The last person that said that to me almost got kicked in the fucking throat. Erica: I was like, "Even if that's how you see it, your role needs to be 24/7 support. Your ass needs to be there making breakfast, making lunch, making cooling pads. Whatever the fuck it is that's happening, you need to be there supporting her, even if y’all not together." It's crazy because people... Yeah, it's crazy. And I can't help but think about what's the other person thinking of. Erica: And not that I'm captain save a hoe, but I find myself asking a lot when I'm dating and you have kids. “So, what's your custody arrangements?” Because to me, that says a lot. If you, one, are willing to leave your kids, not that you don't trust the mother, but leave your kids with their mom 24/7. And also, you're just fucking evil and stingy because I know when that kid crosses a graduation stage or shows up at the Grammys, your Black ass is going to be there front row. Kenrya: Talking about, "That's my baby." When you ain't did shit for them. Erica: Exactly. So, anyway. Okay. So, you mentioned this, there was a person that was Afi's friend and really.... Was her real support through this whole situation. It was Evelyn. So, Afi and her mom moved into this condo building and they had this amazing condo. There was a chick on the same floor down the hall, Evelyn, who was her brother's mistress and she had a condo. Kenrya: Her brother-in-law's mistress. Erica: You're right. The whole family got a whole... Yeah. Her brother-in-law's mistress and that relationship I found interesting. I thought initially that Evelyn and... Afi had a cousin that was her closest cousin. Kenrya: Oh, yeah. Who she talked to- Erica: Who I thought... For a minute, I was like, "Oh. This is a nice, stable, sane person you can talk to through this." But when shit started going left, then the cousin was like... Well, I think everybody, but the cousin was like, "Just stick around. It'll be okay." Where Evelyn was doing the same thing, but Evelyn was on some like, "This is what it's going to be. So, you need to make the best of it." Which I think is... What'd you say? Kenrya: Well, yeah. But also, to make a choice, right? Like, "Are you going to stay here with this being what it is and make the best of it? Or are you going to just be like, 'Fuck it.'" But make a choice. Erica: Yes. And I think her cousin was on the stay, and not make the best of it, but stay and be delusional about the fact that this man got a whole ’nother wife and kid. Kenrya: It was definitely a more traditional view. Erica: A more traditional view. And again, it made me think about... For me, I would've loved... I mean, I loved the story because it was a really well written book. But I definitely would've loved had Eli been like, "Little girl, this is my family, they acting a fool, but here you can have all of this..." Because essentially he was ready to give her all of that. Home, all of this shit. Erica: And I definitely got sad a little bit when Afi started chasing the idea that she was really going to be his wife. Initially, she saw it for what it was. Kenrya: She was skeptical. Erica: Right? And then, she slowly started digging into the concept of, "This is my husband, I'm his wife." And so, when she got to the point where she dug her heels in and was like, "Look, I want this." I'm trying to figure out how not to... Kenrya: Don't say too much. Yeah. Erica: Yeah. When she was like, "I want this." And made an ultimatum, I was just like, "Oh, bitch. Come on, girl. I was rooting for you." Because you could tell it was one of the situations where she truly felt like, "This is my rightful place." Kenrya: Because she fell in love. At first she was skeptical about the whole thing, especially because he didn't show up at the wedding. But then, once he did show up, she fell for him. Before, he was an idea. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: And then, he was a person who was telling her all the things that she wanted to hear. Erica: I have had relationships and people in my life where they were easy to love, easy to fall for. And I have like, not so much as written down a list, but I definitely kept a list of shit they did in my head to remind myself as I start slipping.... I mean, shit, even now as I'm dating and I think about settling for someone that doesn't fit the criteria, hold the values, that check off all the boxes for me, which it's not like got to be taller than 5'7". But don't check off all the boxes for me, I have to remind myself of how it feels to be in a marriage with someone that is not for you. And then, that's like, "Okay, girl. You can't do this." Kenrya: Don't do this. Erica: And I needed Afi to... She should have had that shit written on her hand. Like, "This nigga did not show up to our wedding, didn't show up to our wedding." Because it was just like, "Girl." And it's difficult. Kenrya: But she's so young. Erica: And I was going to say, it's difficult because she's young and she has her family.... Not even just her family, everybody in her ear talking about- Kenrya: And on her back. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: Her wealth that she gets from being married into this family really impacts her family. They don't have a lot. And so, she's not just carrying her own emotions and hopes and dreams. She's carrying all of their shit too. Erica: Yeah. Kenrya: For better or for worse. Erica: And her mom was really on something like... Not even just wealth, but like you said, her mom and her mom's entire social life, support system, all of that. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: And so, it was sad. But by the end of the book... I think about the character at the beginning of the book and the end of the book, two totally different people. I do think, by the end of the book, she had grown and used some of those experiences to shape her into who she was. But you could see the growth that she had done in that period and how it helped propel her and her family into a place of peace, into a place of, "This is where we are, this is how things are and I'm good with that." Erica: I mean, yeah, she was young. She wasn't able to push back or push her ideas. I'm thinking by the end of the story, was her mom back with her? Kenrya: She had set her up somewhere. Erica: Oh, yeah. She sure did. And so, I think that's why her mom was a little more like, "Okay, girl. Do whatever you want to." Because her mom was like, "I'm good now. Peace out." Okay. The relationship with Afi and Eli's family. It reminds me of how when you're in a relationship with someone... And I'm not sure if you felt it, maybe you have, because we both live in a city where we don't have any family right here with us, right? Erica: And so, it's easy for us to get consumed by our partner’s family, because we don't have our family with us. You get what I'm saying? Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: And so, again, it's easy to hear everybody in your ear about them, but occasionally you have somebody in the family that's like, "Even in spite of that girl, dude was right for you." I was hoping Eli's sister was that person. But again, she was just all in that fuck shit. It was reading the... What? Kenrya: No, I was just... Yeah, they were uniformly- Erica: Uniformly on this... We're just going to help mind fuck this girl into... And it was just really... I don't even think it was on some, "We care about Eli." It was just on some like, "We hate this other bitch. So, we are going to do everything we can to take that situation down." But it reminded me when I was younger living out here because my family is so close and it connected and we get together often and all that kind of thing, I found myself in other relationships being so a part of their family that it would influence our relationship. You follow me? Kenrya: I think so, yeah. Erica: Which fucking sucked. Obviously, you probably haven't because you be like, "Hmm." Kenrya: Yeah. I mean, you know me, Erica: I know you. Kenrya: I'll be in a corner minding my fucking business. So, not so much. Yeah. All I'm thinking of are times when people came with me wrong and I had to let them know. So, that's all I got. Erica: Yeah. I know exactly the situation that you are talking about. It definitely reminded me that. Okay. So, another thing that this story really... I don't know if it was triggering, triggering is probably the wrong word. Afi wanted to be the perfect wife for Eli. Again, I think it had a lot to do with her youth, but it was... Kenrya: And culture. Erica: Yeah. Oh, this book was such an interesting look at the Ghanaian culture and the city. Peace did a really good job of describing the streets and how things looked and smelled and all the bustling in the city versus the village. She did a really good job of all of that. Erica: Okay. So, yeah. So, she wanted to be such the perfect wife and her mama was all on her ass like, "Girl, do this. This is what a wife does. This is what a wife does." Even down to the... They had means to have a maid and somebody clean and all of that. And she was like, "No, I'm going to do this to prove myself and prove my worth as a wife." Kenrya: Or she would make three different meals because she didn't know what he liked. And she wanted to make sure that he would love what I ever she made. So, when he showed up, she'd have three meals completely prepared for him, shit that it took her two days to make. Erica: Ugh. I used to. And it was when I connected my value, what I could do or what I could produce. I don't do that shit no more because I'm like, "Look, you here because it’s me either you like it or you don't, but my ability to keep clean baseboards ain't got shit to do with that." Also, I think people forget how little of a fuck niggas give about that shit. Kenrya: Yeah. They don't pay- Erica: They don't pay attention to that. No, they don't. Maybe having extra food is nice. Kenrya: They're like most people, they're thinking about how you make them feel. Erica: Yeah. And three meals don't. Although nice, not so much. I was talking to a friend last night, she did an at home date with this guy because COVID and this nigga delivered meals from three different restaurants to the house so that she could pick. And I was like, "Now, that was cute." Also, because she was like... "I said I was coming over, we were going to eat dinner. And he made a decision. He picked food." She was like, "It was a sexiest thing." Like, "Yes, it is." Kenrya: Yeah. Making decisions- Erica: What'd you say? Kenrya: Making good decisions is- Erica: Or just make... Well, yes. But first step is just making a fucking decision. Kenrya: Well, that's why I put good in the- Erica: Yeah. Because I was thinking... I think we might have mentioned this on the show before, but we've had conversations about guys that are like, "Well, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want?" And I had to remember... I mean, I had this with guys like, "Well, what do you want? What do you want?" I'm like, "Okay. Look, I want you to make a decision. I will find something to eat wherever we go. Pick." Erica: If you still say, "What do you want?" Or like, "No, you pick." I'm going to fucking flip a table. Because I've been very clear about the situation at hand. And I probably also include in that speech, I like a man that can make a decision. That can make a decisive decision. Kenrya: Well, and you can ask questions to make it. I remember when I was going on the first date that almost didn't happen with my partner when I thought- Erica: The decision. Kenrya: We got disconnected and washed my hair. Before that. No, this was before that, when his phone- Erica: Oh, yeah. Kenrya: Something happened and it wasn't taking messages. And I thought that this nigga ghosted me, so I washed my hair and settled in. What he ended up doing was... He had already asked me about my food preferences and allergies just in the course of conversation. And he still does this. I mean, now he knows what I eat. But he researched a ton of restaurants and then found something that he knew would have at least... Kenrya: Literally, his thing was I had to be able to eat at least five things on a menu that weren't salads. And so, he would only take me to places that met that criteria. So, I would go wherever he picked because he took the time to figure out what I liked and what I couldn't eat. And then, he would just make a fucking decision and we would go. Erica: That is so nice. So, you weren't relegated to eat in [crosstalk 00:38:53]. Kenrya: Exactly. Erica: Cheese off the top. Kenrya: And I remember texting you and one of our friends and being like, "This is nice, right? Because the bar's on the floor." So, I was like, [inaudible 00:39:09]. "This is nice." Erica: Is this expected? Nice. And that's the shit that sucks. Because as you're dating, you're like, "Am I supposed to be excited about this? Because I'm excited, but is this..." Kenrya: "Or is this basic?" Erica: "Am I basic? Or is this nice?" Kenrya: Right. Erica: Play a whole fucking... Kenrya: It's the whole game. Erica: The whole game. Kenrya: It's a terrible game. Erica: And this story... It made me think. I remember I was in a relationship. I might have mentioned which one before on the show. But I was in a relationship and my partner, the person I was dating at the time did something I was so excited about and I told my therapist and she was like, "Girl, you got crumbs. You're excited about crumbs?" And I was like, "Well, when you put it that way, I feel dumb." Erica: She didn't mean to make me feel dumb, but this entire fucking story was her just getting crumbs and making due and being happy with it. And it hurt my heart because it was one of... She was just a baby stuck in a... Also, he moved her from her family, isolation. Kenrya: Isolation. Erica: He moved her from her family and she was just a baby, just trying to figure this out on her own fucking sucks, especially when you have no support to help you make good decisions. Kenrya: Oh, yeah. Because y’all, Erica said that her mom came, but she just came to get her settled and she went home. Erica: Oh, yeah. Kenrya: She was just by herself out here in a new city trying to figure shit out. Erica: In a new city, not even being from the city. It'd be different if she was from another city and was like, "Okay. This is a new city, but I can still make my way around." She was even fucking amazed at the number of... I think she went to the grocery store or something and was amazed at the number of something she could select. Kenrya: Or when she went to the indoor mall. Erica: Yes. Kenrya: It was like, "This is not the market." Erica: Yeah. Which further ingrains in me that I have to make sure that what I'm doing with my child and the little children around me, little people around me is being a person that is supportive. And yes, all parents have a... "I want my kid’s life to look like whatever." I'm not into specifics. Mine is generally just happy and out my house, whatever. And out my house more from being self-sufficient but not like "You got to rush out." Erica: But anyway. And so, this just reminds me that even if it's something that I want my kids to do, I just got to give them the space because I don't want them to feel like if I make a decision, they're going to let me down. All right. That's all I got. You got anything else? Kenrya: I don't think so. Erica: Okay. Well, we're going to take a break. And then, we will get to our next segment. Kenrya: What's turning us on? Kenrya: Hey, y’all. Today's a great day to start your own podcast. Whether you're looking for a new marketing channel, have a message you want to share with the world, or just think it'd be fun to have your own show like us, podcasting is an easy, inexpensive and fun way to expand your reach online. And Buzzsprout is hands down the easiest and best way to launch, promote and track your podcast. Kenrya: Your show gets put online and listed in all the major podcast directories like Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google, literally everything within minutes of finishing and uploading your recording. We use it here for The Turn On and I can truly attest to the fact that it's pretty fucking dope. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners and the team at Buzzsprout is passionate about helping you succeed. Kenrya: So, join over 100,000 podcasters like us who are already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Just click the link in our show notes and you'll be able to get your own account set up. And if you sign up for a paid plan, you'll get a $20 Amazon gift card and support our show. Let's create something great together. Sign up for Buzzsprout today. Erica: Okay, you all, we're back. So, what's turning me on? Recently I went to a conference... I have this thing about books. I love books. I can't stop buying them. Every time I buy one, the other ones cackle, "Welcome. You'll be sitting on this shelf to just be stared at." But I be reading my books. Erica: Anyway. So, what's turning me on? This book. It is called, “Let's Talk About It, Teens Guide to Sex Relationships and Being a Human Being.” I like this because it's one of those books that helps parents talk to their kids about sex, but it's more like a graphic novel. Kenrya: Oh, that's dope. Erica: And it has like, "What is gender and sexuality? What is a relationship? What is consent? What is the first?" That kind of thing. But what I really like about it is that it uses all types, all color, sizes and ethnicities as well as abilities. So, see there, there's a person in a wheelchair. There's some Black people. There's a White guy, fat and it's not a book that sugar coats anything, see? Kenrya: Right. Erica: There's a vagina. Those are nipples and breasts and they look different. So, I really like this book because one, it helps kids. As a parent, it helps you talk about sex with your kid, especially if you're a parent that's just like, "Here, read this book, we'll talk about it later." Erica: And it features all colors, all sizes, all shapes. And I just think it is so dope. They even have a chapter on sexting. So, I think this is a really dope book for parents of little people. I definitely think it's a little bit older. Kenrya: I was going to say, what age group do you think it's best for? Erica: I think teens. Teens, preteens, don't give this to your third grader. Yeah. They talk about porn and how you can safely navigate kinks in porn. But it ain't really real what... It's not always really real. So, yeah. This is what's turning me on, a book that helps you, as a parent, talk to your little people about sex, your medium people. We don't call them little people, medium people about sex. Okay. I'm good. Anything else for the good of order? All righty. Well, this is Erica and Kenrya, two hoes making a clap. [theme music] Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode. Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions. Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen. Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.
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Amazon Music | Apple Podcasts | Google Play | iHeart Radio | Pandora | Radio Public | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn | YouTube CONNECT WITH THE TURN ON Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Goodreads | Patreon SHOW NOTES In this episode of The Turn On, Erica and Kenrya talk to author Katrina Jackson about Black academia, creating what we want to see, the glorious intentionality of polyamorous relationships, writing internal conflict and happy-for-nows, stepping away from grind culture and why history is both fascinating and horny. RESOURCES
The Turn On participates in affiliate programs, which provide a small commission when you purchase products via links on this site. This costs you nothing, but helps support the show. Click here for more information. TRANSCRIPT Kenrya: Come here. Get off. [theme music] Kenrya: We are happy to be here with y'all and we are very happy because today we are going to be talking to writer Katrina Jackson, pronouns, she and her. Katrina's a college professor by day and she writes erotica, erotic romance, and historical fiction by weekend. She writes racially diverse and queer stories that show love in the world in all its beauty and diversity. Hey, Katrina. Katrina Jackson: Hi. Kenrya: Thanks for coming on. Katrina Jackson: I'm stressed, but all right, I'm here. Erica: Bitch. Bitch, you should be stressed. You should be happy that we are not in the same room because I would fucking hit you. You wrote your ass off in this book like bitch, I hope you don't mind me calling you bitch. Kenrya: Let me turn my damn volume down because you done blew out my fucking ears and I can't- Erica: Bitch. We love all your books, right. “Welcome to Sea Port,” perfect. But this book, girl, we go in and in about it in the last episode about how beautifully you write and how steamy your scenes are. But you just capture it, so. Kenrya: And it was so cool because I could see your growth. I was like... the writer in me is like, "Oh my God." We love- Katrina Jackson: I literally... Kenrya: Yeah. Go ahead. Katrina Jackson: I told someone that recently that I'm just not the writer I was in like 2015, and that makes me really happy. There are some projects where I see that growth and it's really nice when other people see it too. Kenrya: Yeah. Erica: This one was- Kenrya: When I say I devoured this book, like legit, I think I started it like before bed or like while I was waiting on my partner to get here, and I finished it the next afternoon maybe. Just flew through, didn't want to put it down. Erica: It took me longer because I kept stopping to masturbate. Katrina Jackson: Okay. Y'all tell, not like you specifically, but people tell me that all the time about like certain stories and I'm like, "Okay, I'm happy to have-" Erica: Now, this one. This one I was like, "Oh, this bitch is on fire." Katrina Jackson: Oh, yay. Erica: Yeah, so. I call you a bitch in the most loving way possible because bitch- Katrina Jackson: And I take it as such. Erica: Bitch you did a good job, bitch. Okay. So thank you for joining us. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Erica: What did little Katrina want to be when she was growing up? Katrina Jackson: Not broke, honestly. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: Listen. That there, right there. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Kenrya: Say less. Katrina Jackson: Right. Yeah, I grew up very poor. So I wanted to be not broke for sure. And then I wanted to be like, I think, a lot of little Black girls, I wanted to be a lawyer. That seemed like a legit career where you did not have to be broke. And I guess the other is doctor, but I don't like blood or bones and anything like that. So I was like, "I love books. I can do that." And then I also wanted to be a writer, but I thought that, again, like a lot of little Black kids, not even little Black girls, that seems so unattainable and I'm a pretty practical person. Even to this day I'm like, "I don't really understand how writers survive with this kind of environment. I need some kind of security." Katrina Jackson: So yeah, and then I became a historian later because I realized, one, I don't like tests and lawyering seems like a whole bunch of tests to get to where you need to be. And I also don't like environments that seem needlessly combative, and that's how I understood law school. I had a friend who started law school before I did, and I was like, "Oh, girl. This is your life? What is going on?" Erica: "Why are we arguing all the damn time?" Katrina Jackson: Like literally. And I'm an arguer, but even I have my limits. And I was like, "So this is your job, you just..." So, no. Kenrya: It seems stressful. Katrina Jackson: It seems very stressful. And so I ended up in grad school, which unfortunately was not that different, but it seemed different on the surface. And then I was like, "Oh, damn. This is just the same thing, but three more years. What?" So, yeah. Kenrya: Okay. So then how did you come to be a writer? Katrina Jackson: So I wrote when I was younger. I was definitely a kid... I'm still pretty shy, but I was a very shy kid. So I was really internal, I spent a lot of time by myself. I read and then wrote a lot. And then I wrote horror stories when I was a kid. And then in high school I was very dramatic and wrote a whole bunch of slam poetry, and that was that. And did that into college. And then I just stopped writing when I went to grad school because I think a lot of my friends after college had lives and I just stayed in school. I don't know if that makes sense, but when you go to grad school or like some kind of extended school after- Kenrya: It's consuming. Katrina Jackson: It is. And so all of my friends were like getting married and being in relationships and I was at the library, checking out 60 books at a time like, "Can I just come pick these up later?" I wasn't living in the real world, it felt like. And I was working on my master's and hating it, disliking the whole process. My advisor was kind of a mess. I was more than kind of a mess. And so I just started, first of all, reading fan fiction again and then reading erotica again. And then I just started writing my own. And that was like, I don't know, like 2008. And then I've just been writing consistently since then. Kenrya: All right. Erica: So who or what inspires you to write? Katrina Jackson: I mean, there are lots of writers that I have loved and I remember sort of going back to in that moment. I was definitely... I have always read erotica when I should not have been. Kenrya: Same. Same. Katrina Jackson: So I definitely remember reading that Anne Rice erotica when I was far too young to be reading any of her books, let alone that series. I had a cousin who was like my gateway to urban fiction and she would just hand me whatever she was reading. So that's how I read my first Zane, and I read Zane very consistently after that. And then, so I think those writers sort of like set in a path for me. And there were other people, I always liked Sista Soulja et cetera. Katrina Jackson: But I think in terms of my own writing now, I'm a little adversarial in that I will write a book because I don't see anything either like it or with people like me in it, which is definitely where “Looking” came from. But all of my books are sort of like, "Oh, there are all these things that exist in romance or erotica, but there aren't fat Black girls, there aren't Black girls at all, there aren't Black men." And so I am a little adversarial in that I'm just like, "Oh, I don't see it or I can't find it and I've looked. So here is whatever I'm writing now." Kenrya: Right. I know you were saying earlier, the idea that folks are just out here writing and supporting themselves is still kind of like, "The fuck?" How do you balance your writing with your day job because that's a lot too? Katrina Jackson: Yeah. I mean, so I say there are like two phases. So certainly before 2019, I was just writing late into the night, early in the morning, in little snatches when I was in a meeting I didn't want to be in, whatever. And I would just kind of fit it wherever I could. And I burnt out, so I do not recommend that. And then now I'm trying to be a little bit more rigid in terms of scheduling and even scheduling breaks, but fitting it in where I'm naturally most productive. So I will wait here today because I'm most productive in terms of writing in the morning. So I'll wake up, make coffee, and I can sit down at my computer and write for a little bit. Katrina Jackson: And I'm trying to be kind about thinking about when my job at the university actually requires me to work because I think academics are really great about working 24/7 and never giving themselves a break or prioritizing things that their university wants or that they say tenure needs or whatever, whether or not it feeds them. And in the past two years I've been really firm about when my university requires me to work, like when I'm teaching, when I have to be at meetings, when my students or colleagues are more likely to contact me. And then outside of those times I'm not working for my university. I'm just not doing that. And then that time can be anything else. Kenrya: That's what's up. Erica: It's crazy. Kenrya: Go ahead. Erica: No, you go, Kenrya. Kenrya: No, I was just... A lot of folks on my Twitter timeline are like Black academics or whatever, I don't know really how that happened. But folks are always just talking about how the academy is, about the anti-Blackness of it and about how one of the ways that that comes through is this culture of overwork and under-reward, right? And so much of combating that I think is remembering the agency that you have, which is what it sounds like you're doing. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. And I think the really sad part is I knew all this. I knew all this before I got my degree and I got my job. I was really lucky in that all of my PhD advisors were people of color, most of them were Black, of varying generations even, right. And so somehow even, though I watched their careers be disrupted by the ways in which departments didn't reward them... like my first advisor was certainly a mess, but he was a very intelligent man, not the most effective teacher, but just ridiculously smart. Right after I got my master's, he didn't get tenure and then he left. And I was like, "Well then what does that mean? What do I do?" And I was saved by a whole bunch of Black academics and other people of color. Katrina Jackson: But even at the time, even as I was like, "Oh, I'm free of him." I was like, "This is actually incredibly ridiculous." This is a man who did all the things, in some cases more of the things, that he should do and his university didn't reward him with the thing that academics are supposed to be rewarded with, which is tenure. And so then he moved around. And I knew all of that, I saw it happen to other people and I fell right into that trap where it was like, "Okay, one more thing. I'm going to take on one more committee. I'm going to advise one more student. I'm going to grade until two o'clock in the morning," or whatever it was. Katrina Jackson: And they tell you, this is going to be a bit adjacent, but they tell you, "Oh, after tenure it'll be better." And so many academics learn, "Oh, actually after tenure, it isn't better." And then especially being someone from my background who has... I have no safety net, I do not come from a family of means. I take care of myself, like in people who are relying on me in some way. And so they tell you after tenure the money will be good. And the money's not good when you came in making less than your colleagues who are white and or who got that job a generation before. I mean, it's just a whole bunch of lies. And so setting that boundary was part of me finally accepting that I wasn't going to like, whatever, talented tenth my way out of the bullshit. Kenrya: Shit. Yeah. Erica: That's a word. Kenrya: That's a whole word. Erica: Especially for our cousins that are looking to head into academia. Kenrya: Or who are looking to break out. Katrina Jackson: Well, look. Look. Erica: So buy this book. Katrina Jackson: Buy this book so I can break out. Erica: It can be found on Patreon. Kenrya: Exactly. Lord. Erica: So here on the podcast, we use erotica as the jumping off point for conversations just about everything, including sex. So we always like to ask about the lessons folks learned when they were growing up. So what was the prevailing attitude about sex and gender in your home growing up? Katrina Jackson: Oh, that's a great question. I think I got a lot of mixed messages about both. On the one hand, I think I got a lot of messages that sex was taboo or secret. And on the other hand, in some ways I grew up in a family that was fairly liberated relative to sex, partially because I didn't grow up in the kind of family that tied sex and marriage and children. My mother was a single mother, actually so were both of my aunts. And so I grew up in a family that was really female-centered. And yet I also learned really sort of negative and regressive messages about what women could do, what women should want out of life, and how men should behave. Katrina Jackson: And then on the other hand, I grew up with a grandfather who was always literally right there helping his three children with, at least from my child eyes, very little judgment about how they handled their lives. And then I grew up in a family that sort of revered his relationship with my grandmother. And then a few years ago, my mother and I found out that my grandparents were never married. And so I had all of these very mixed messages about gender and sex. And I think a lot of my, in particular my 30s, have been sort of pulling apart those messages and trying to save what I think actually served me. Katrina Jackson: I am not married. I have no kids, which is very rare in my family, generally speaking. And there are moments in my life where I felt very unhappy about that as if I was failing in some way. And yet I don't actually think that's a message that people in my family have necessarily put on my back, but it's something that I thought I should feel bad about. So I also would say though it's true that like, I don't come from a family that talks about sex or gender explicitly, a lot of what I learned was because I was a really quiet and observant child, which meant that I learned some of those hypocrisies because I didn't have the full story, right, so. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So last week, as we said, we read an excerpt from “Looking,” thanks again for that. And the book stars Nadia and Darren, a married couple that realizes that they want to bring a third, Jourdan, into their marriage. Where did the idea for this particular book come from? Katrina Jackson: So I love polyamory. It is in a whole bunch of my books. But I had always written polyamorous relationships where everyone is very experienced or at least very ready. And for the longest I had wondered what it would be like to write a married couple that has no idea what they're doing. And in particular, also to write a queer woman who realizes in her 30s that she's queer because that had just not been an exploration she had gone on before. And so this was the story. And in the beginning it was supposed to be, first of all, shorter. The plan was that this would be like a smooth 15- Erica: We said that. We said that in the episode. I was like, "Is this a short? Because we read it so quickly, it was hard to like... We couldn't recall. Kenrya: But I remember you tweeting that you kept trying to write shorts, but them shits kept turning into full-on projects. Katrina Jackson: Yes. So this one was supposed to be like, I don't know, 15,000 words, something like that. It's 50, and I don't know how. I mean, I know how that happened, but I was just definitely like, "What the fuck is going on here?" But it's because in the end I really wanted to write a relationship that had, because I prized this in polyamorous romances that are done well in my opinion, where everyone has a distinct relationship with one another. And that's how I approached this section. Katrina Jackson: So like Darren and Jourdan have a specific relationship, Jourdan and Nadia have a specific relationship... whatever, all of those iterations, and that mattered to me. And I just, in my foolishness, thought I could do that very quickly and be like, "Well, story over. We're done." And that's just not realistic. So yeah, it sort of came from really wanting to think about what it's like to build a foundation of a relationship and not have to think about or... 10 years they have gone through all these things because you can imagine them going through these things hopefully because they have very carefully set a foundation for a relationship they'd like to have together. Kenrya: Right. Erica: We've had interviews in the past with people that practiced ethical non-monogamy. And one of the things that stood out is, I think one of the questions we asked was like, "What do you want people to know about ethical non-monog?" And I recall one of the guests saying, "Our relationships aren't interchangeable. We have very specific relationships with each person." And I think it's beautiful that you were intentional about that in this book, and it came across. So that was dope. As we mentioned, we featured another one of your books, “Welcome to Sea Port,” on the show. And that book was also about a polyamorous relationship. So what draws to you to write about these characters? Katrina Jackson: I'm bi, and so I like to write whatever I like, and it's easy if I can put it all in one book. But I don't have to think about it. So I think that's one thing, but- Erica: Why choose? Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Why choose, truly? But I also think too that so much of what I like about polyamorous relationships is I think the hopeful, if it's done well, again, for me, is the intentionality, right. I think it's super easy to write, and maybe it's accidental, but I think it's really easy to write sort of, in particular the MF erotica and male/female erotica or romance where it's not intentional, like I'm just supposed to believe these people are together because they want to be together and there's nothing sort of there, right. And while I love insta-love or instant lust, I think you still have to have something to get past just the first sexual encounter or whatever. Now, if it's just the first sexual encounter, Lord also send me that, right, I'll also write that. But if- Kenrya: And I'm the queen of being like, "But why do you like him? He's an asshole." Or like, "What? What is it?" Katrina Jackson: But you don't have to like someone necessarily to fuck them, which is lovely, right. And so there should be, at least for me, a distinction. And I think polyamorous romances actually do require you to be more intentional because it's not just like, "Oh, we have this one night stand." And like in the ‘Welcome to Sea Port’ series it's not like, "Oh, we had this one night stand. I'm never going to see you again." This town is that big, right. So you're going to see these people again, and so there has to be something there. So I do like the intentionality of a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, I would say those are the two big things. Kenrya: Right. Erica: Okay. And that kind of leads us to our next question. So in the last episode we talked about how Jourdan's experience caused her the first blow up that they had. We talked about how her past experiences caused her to come in hot in an interaction with Darren. And it rang so true to us, I was reading that shit like, "Whoa." Erica: So how do you write internal shit so well? Because we feel it, and even as adults, it takes us a while to even do all the links and then be like, "Oh, shit. That's why." And you write all of that shit out. You write it out and then it sounds good, so... Kenrya: And it made sense, right, when we started because we didn't... So we're trying not to spoil, so we didn't talk about what the blow up was. But when we thought about their previous interactions [crosstalk 00:23:10]. Erica: How you laid the scene, it was just like, "Oh. Shit. Yeah." Katrina Jackson: So, one, I'm a pantser, so none of that was planned. Kenrya: I was going to ask, are you a pantser or, what is it, plotter? Katrina Jackson: Plotter. Yeah. Kenrya: Is that what the other people are called? Okay. Katrina Jackson: I could not plot my way out of a paper bag. I could not. But I- Erica: You're doing well. You're doing something right, so just keep at it. Katrina Jackson: I think though, that it's nice to hear that you all think I do internal stuff well because I'm not an external conflict writer. I almost never write external conflict. And if there is external conflict, it is usually based in the internals of the relationship anyway. Erica: Do you know what? That is why I love... didn't I say that this book was gentle? Your last book was gentle, it was just... It's- Kenrya: Just them getting through their own shit. Erica: Getting through their own shit. Katrina Jackson: Because that's hard. Kenrya: It's not some ex waiting in the wings to fuck shit up. It's not some vindictive bitch on the corner who want him to... It's just working on your own shit. Katrina Jackson: Yeah, which is hard as fuck. Erica: I didn't mean to cut you off, but that was... Katrina Jackson: No, it's fine. But again, it's nice to be seen. It's always nice to be seen because I just, I think... Internal shit is hard, and I think we often in our society don't acknowledge that. And this is, for me personally, so often I am literally my own barrier. People will be like, "Ooh, I want to do this thing with you. Ooh. I want to work with you. Ooh, I want to support you." And I'm like, "But why?" And then that but why could stop me in my tracks forever or months or weeks. Katrina Jackson: And again, like all that stuff that I've sort of learned in my family or I thought I learned in my family, so much of that I had to realize in my 30s was also me, right. Me making connections, me deciding that I was going to give that space in my brain, even when I was actively saying no to other things, I made decisions and I stood in my way. And I think a lot of that comes out in my writing because... so I, again, will get rid of external conflict or not even consider an external conflict because for however many people in your relationship, you all have to get out of your own way, you all have to decide to get out of your own way to be in this relationship. Katrina Jackson: And that is a lot of work when done well, right. It really can't be that like, "Oh, we just decided I'm going to get over all this trauma in my past and tomorrow is a new day and everything is lovely." Which is why in so many of my books, I will even say I don't traditionally think of any of my books as a happily-ever-after, I do tend to think of them as a happy-for-now because they still have so much to go through, right. So I think in the book where I think, "Okay, you can imagine them in two years or five years or 10 years still having the tools to work through things or at least being willing to get those tools." Kenrya: That's a really interesting point. I barely think about where people end unless it feels like it went on too long, right. I'm thinking of one book that I read in preparation for the show at some point where I was like, "Oh, we can stop right here." But it did not stop right there. It was fine because I liked the characters, but I remember being like, "I could have just imagined the rest of this and it would've been okay." Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Huh, that's interesting. But happily ever after is such a huge part of what makes this genre move forward. I never thought about the idea of happy for now. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Kenrya: Much more realistic. Katrina Jackson: I mean, kind of. And again, I think everyone is a different writer and that's fine. And I do also know that because of that, I'm not going to be everyone's favorite writer, which is again also fine with me. But I do think that my stories, I do, stories like this, obviously not all of them, stories like this, I am trying for realism, right. So what 100% makes sense for someone in Jourdan's position to come into this relationship with a slightly older, established, married couple and have to reevaluate herself because they're reevaluating themselves, but for very different reasons that hopefully speak to people like this, because I am writing people who are like people I know or who I imagine exist in this world. Erica: Also, even the internal conflict was not, "My husband thinks she's hotter," or, "My wife thinks she's hotter." It was just normal shit that people deal with. Kenrya: Well, it wasn't the shit that people would project onto a couple that was practicing in this way, right. Like isn't that the thing that we would project on people, "Oh, it's got to be about attraction." Erica: Yeah. Exactly. Kenrya: "It's got to be jealousy." Erica: Exactly. And it's like, "Nah, she's just feeling her own... Yeah, she's going through her own shit that's normal that if you were just with one person that was super established, you'd be having these same concerns." It was good, yeah. Katrina Jackson: Thank you. Erica: I keep saying that, but... Katrina Jackson: Thank you. Kenrya: No, that was an excellent point. You're right. Yeah, absolutely. So this book is part of your Patreon rewards. We're wondering what made you decide to go with that distribution model for this? Katrina Jackson: Oh, not asking me questions where I have to be self-reflective. I hate that for me. Katrina Jackson: So I think some of this was part of me setting a boundary. I think if you'll talk to any indie author, they will tell you that they have to produce at a certain level to stay on top of the algorithm to sort of stay fresh in their readers' minds, whatever. And there was a moment in my career where that's exactly what I wanted. Like in 2020, I was like, "Yep. I want to be on top of that. I want to be publishing regularly. I want you to not forget me and whatever." Katrina Jackson: And then for a lot of different reasons I had to, one, let that go. And then, two, realized that wasn't actually what I want. I don't want to be everyone's favorite Black indie author or Black author of romance or erotica. Truly, I do not. Please, Jesus, let a bitch write, right. I think that carries a lot of weight. I think it carries a lot of responsibility and I value peace straight up, right. Katrina Jackson: And there are some stories that will be harder for me to sell. This is not necessarily one, this is very much in my larger body of work. But there are other things that I have put on Patreon or will put on Patreon that will be a little bit harder to sell wide and that's okay. And so I wanted to, one, create a little bit of space between me and what feels like a grind, where I'm always trying to pump something out. Kenrya: Churn something out. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. So that I could then have this space to try something out, something a little different. Or even like with this one, I serialized it, so I published about 20,000 or so words a month. And that worked out really well, especially in the beginning, not so much at the end where I was like, "Oh, we've got to wrap this shit up. This story is ending," but it wasn't ending. Katrina Jackson: But that was really nice to do because then it meant that I was still always writing, I was making room for writing in my life, but I wasn't publishing a book a month or publishing a novel a month. And then it also meant that people who... like I have a very random or have very random sections of my readership. Some people only read something, some people read everything. The people who end up at my Patreon will read, for the most part, everything that I write. And so this was nice because it meant that they got to get that stuff first or in this case they are the only people who get this. And so I am at least present in their mind in a way that I don't have to be present in this sort of general romance space because I don't really want to be present there, at least not in the same way. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Erica: Okay. So... Oh. Go ahead. Kenrya: I've just... one thing that has happened for me over this last year, probably a year and a half, it kind of feels like it's mirroring like what you're talking about, this real reevaluation of, "What does success look like for you? And what are you willing to do to get it? And what does it do to your quality of life as you chase that?" Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Erica: And the quality of work. Katrina Jackson: And the quality of the work, 100%. Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Katrina Jackson: I think- Kenrya: Go. Yeah. Katrina Jackson: ... you're 100% correct. I'm a fairly low-key person, period. Even in my academic work, I don't have any particular... which is why I publish as an academic much less frequently than other people want me to or other people in my position. I would like to do the good work, but I would also like to sleep. I would also like... and I have not done a great job of that by any means, but I would like to do those things. Katrina Jackson: And so I do produce, as an academic, a little less frequently. But I also don't need to be out here giving the big lecture in my field or publishing a book every other year or whatever. I don't. It doesn't matter to me. I would much rather be present in my own life, be present for my students who are much more focused and much more real in my life than like whatever accolades come from publishing in certain ways. But with that said, I think it's also really easy, even when you make peace with that decision, to have moments where you think, "I would love to be recognized. I would love for people to not forget that I exist." Katrina Jackson: And I think in the last two years I had that moment where I was like, "I would love to be recognized. I would love to have people know that I exist." I would love to not see people on my timeline on Twitter say, "Oh, I wish there was a... whatever, this kind of book." And I'm like, "Here I am." But would I love that recognition over peace? Not so much. And so I had to deal with that. Kenrya: Yeah. That's pretty powerful when you get to it, it doesn't mean it's easy, but- Katrina Jackson: And it doesn't mean you stay there either, right. You're going to have those moments where you just have to remind yourself of what matters to you, of that core goal. And also too, I think you said, which I have also struggled with, is there are certain things I'm not willing to do. There are things I'm not willing to write to be more successful, straight up. And I've said this publicly, I'll say it again, I truly don't give a shit. Every time someone acts a fucking mess, I turn one white character who I want to write into some person of color, I don't give a fuck. Katrina Jackson: I am not interested in writing... And look, my Mafia series fucked up my percentages, so no one's seeing a white person in my catalog for a hot second. I don't care. And I will always unabashedly write queer Black people and Black men. I mean, I think that is a thing that we, as in romance, need to deal with. The lack of Black men in certain spaces is very particular. The lack of queer Black men and women certainly is a problem. So I was very deliberate here in that everyone in “Looking” is Black, straight up. Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, even in “Welcome to Sea Port,” what I loved, we just keep going back to all your books, in “Welcome to Sea Port,” I loved that the throuple was like everybody... wasn't just- Kenrya: Everybody loving on everybody. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Erica: Yeah. It wasn't just a V, but it was a triangle. And that was refreshing to see because we don't see that, especially by Black writers, Black women writers. So we could talk and go on and on. Okay. So what did you learn from writing this book and what do you want readers to walk away with? Katrina Jackson: I learned that I have a terrible grasp of time and how long the story will take, and I need to work on that, straight up. Erica: It's to our benefit though. Katrina Jackson: Thank you. I wish that was the joke answer, that is actually, literally, the answer. Kenrya: Yeah. That's real shit [crosstalk 00:37:06] time management is important- Katrina Jackson: It is. Kenrya: ... and hard. Katrina Jackson: And very hard. Very hard. So that's what I learned. I think what I want people to take away from it is things that I have had to deal with or am still dealing with internally, that it is really never too late to sort of reevaluate your life and really center the things that make you happy. And in that process, it is never too late to just not give a shit what everyone else thinks. Kenrya: Yes. That's actually one of the things that really did stick with me and we didn't really talk about it. It's hard, since we want to talk about concepts, we also don't want to spoil shit. But the fact that they completely remade their life and their family, Erica: Their family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We touched on it. Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:38:00] That shit's hard. Yeah, we did a little bit. That shit's hard, and they was like, "Fuck, yeah." Erica: "We're going to chase happiness. We're going to follow our joy." And that was... Yeah. Kenrya: And there were never any moments where, again, you kept it to the internal conflict that wasn't about what the fuck other people were going to- Erica: Never. Kenrya: ... say in it. That was super refreshing because I think so often, and I've read, well, we've done, at this point, quite a few polyamorous books on the show, but often that is the conflict, right, we all go out and we have to deal with somebody being a bigot, that's always the thing. And that wasn't, and I love that that wasn't it because they figured that shit out together. Katrina Jackson: I think- Erica: Because there are bigger things to be more concerned about. Katrina Jackson: Right. Erica: And so... Oh, sorry. Katrina Jackson: No, that's literally the point, right. That's literally the point. I do not tend to write a lot of kids in books, I don't care. Erica: Fuck them kids. Katrina Jackson: Right. I mean- Erica: As a parent, I can say that. Katrina Jackson: ... I love children, I just... but I have actually been writing a lot more kids accidentally in a bunch of my stories because I think that, like in this particular case, what is the point of worrying about what other people are going to think about their relationship when they have... Like Darren and Nadia have two sons who are primary, right. And so in the back of their mind is like, "Is this a good person? Could this be a good person for our child? And is this a good person who can be a part of our family?" And that has to override... if there was going to be any external conflict, it would've been that because that's the part that matters. But we are so worried about what some old white lady thinks about you holding your girlfriend's hand while your wife is there. I mean, it's just, what's the point? Kenrya: Fuck her. Yeah. Katrina Jackson: Truly, right. Or even just that the other bigger things are to consider how you make everyone in this relationship feel whole, right. How you deal with and handle of your needs. Like how you even deal with your living situation so that everyone has space, right, which is why that sort of epilogue is really significant because it, not to spoil, but it sort of shows you that everyone is in this relationship to make the entire family happy, not just themselves or not just one other person. And I think external conflict is hard, but so often it sort of takes over from doing the necessary internal work and the necessary work in your relationship or family in a book that you can end the story wherever it ends, whether it goes on too long or not, thinking this is a relationship that can last. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's real. It's like people who like to stir up drama rather than deal with their own shit. Katrina Jackson: Hello. And I've been that person, so it don't make you happy. Kenrya: It does not. Erica: Do you have a favorite line or passage in this book? Katrina Jackson: No, I forgot that whole thing. I published that last chapter on Patreon and I was like... You're lucky I remember names. Every time I write a sequel, I'm like, "Who is this person? Did I give them a last name? What color are their eyes? Are they tall, short?" I'm trash. Absolutely not. Erica: Okay. And that is all right. Kenrya: That's funny. What's your superpower? Katrina Jackson: What? Right now I think it is my ability to learn how to be honest with myself or I am learning how to be honest with myself and it's hard and I'm doing it anyway. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. Erica: Okay. So since we're talking about good things coming in threes, we're going to ask you your top three. So I'm going to name a category. I want you to give me your top three. Okay? Katrina Jackson: Okay. Erica: Top three people in the world. Katrina Jackson: Aw, come on. Okay. Like my mama. I love all my nieces and nephews, but my middle niece is absolutely fantastic. And I mean, he has long since passed, but my grandfather is still my absolute favorite person. Erica: Okay. Top three songs. Katrina Jackson: So the first part of “Hold On” by Adele has a hold on me right now. Not the whole song, just the first two verses and the chorus, absolutely in love with that. The “Homecoming” version of “Formation,” absolute hold on me, play it all the time. Kenrya: I listen to that album still. Katrina Jackson: So often. Which is- Kenrya: It is my favorite. Erica: I can't listen to her regular music. Katrina Jackson: No, because then you start singing. Erica: I can't listen to a song without hearing the “Homecoming” [crosstalk 00:43:31]. Katrina Jackson: Yes. Kenrya: Absolutely. It is just phenomenal. Katrina Jackson: Absolutely. Which is why the third is actually the “Love On Top” version from “Homecoming,” which is my favorite version of “Love On Top.” Erica: Y'all going to have me listening to Bey. Ooh, I'm going to listen when I get off... Katrina Jackson: I just like the progression, like oh my God, I could- Kenrya: And her transitions are the fucking best. And then when you can hear this other song coming in the background. And I still have moments from... So Erica and I have been to see her live [crosstalk 00:44:04]. Erica: Every single show since Mrs. Carter. Katrina Jackson: Oh, okay. Kenrya: Yeah. And all in different cities, we travel. But I remember the first show we went to, she was doing... Oh fuck. Oh God, I can't remember what the original song was, but she put “Flashing Lights” in it for two seconds and it sank into my soul. And so now every time I hear the song, I hear it, and I can't forget. Her transitions are just like fucking transcendent. I just- Katrina Jackson: I think if you grew up on DJ mixes on the radio, she speaks to that part of you. And there is nothing I love more than an uncanny remix that brings something back from forever ago, something you grew up with, something you ain’t heard in 10 years. Erica: That's my shit. Katrina Jackson: Literally. And so I also... it is no shock that I prefer the live versions of a whole bunch of her songs to the studio versions because just what she does with [crosstalk 00:45:10]. Kenrya: When you hear... like when you know, I'll be like, "Yes. Yes. This is for real niggas." Like when you hear the two seconds and you know exactly what's about to come next and you get hyped. Like right before “Swag Surfin'” comes in and you know that's what's about to fucking happen, and you know that's just meant for y'all, mm-mm (negative), can't. Yeah. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: I get hype. Sorry. Katrina Jackson: No, for real though, it's a perfect album, to be honest with you. For me at least, it's a perfect album. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: And I had the bootleg version the one where somebody had recorded the actual show. So I was listening to that for like the year before it came out. But the real one is so much better, I just... but I still have that one too. Erica: You can hear like the live [crosstalk 00:45:58]. Katrina Jackson: Even the band, there are moments when it's just the band and I'm like, "Oh, this is some real nigga shit." Kenrya: That whole transition into “Party” where they're doing all the songs. Oh, bless them. Erica: Okay. So this was not question, but I'm about to ask. Top three Beyoncé songs. Everybody has to answer. Top three Beyoncé songs. Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:46:18] I don't know. Katrina Jackson: Okay. Kenrya: That's... Okay. You're playing. Erica: I'm going to have to look at my phone. Kenrya: Let me look at my playlist situation here. Erica: Okay. This is... Oh, wow. Okay. So let me see what I got. Katrina Jackson: I feel like the easiest way would just be to go to what I listen to all the time, but it's so mood specific [crosstalk 00:46:46]. Erica: Right. Kenrya: Yeah, I got certain albums I listen to for certain things. Like when I wash my hair, I listen to “Black Is King.” I have a version that takes out all the like interstitials, that's my hair washing, for whatever reason. Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Erica: Okay. Damn. Kenrya: You asked this shit. Erica: I know. I know. I know. Katrina Jackson: I also feel like there's a very basic version of me, that's like when I'm writing romance, there are just a couple songs where I'm like, "I want to hear just this on the loop though. Nothing else." Erica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so... This is so hard. So hard. Okay. And then also some of these songs are just because I love the performances. Okay, so I am going to say... Damn. I was listening to “Irreplaceable” in the car the other day, singing my fucking heart out. I was like, "Damn, that's a good song." So I would put “Irreplaceable” on it. Oh, “Don't Hurt Yourself” because that was my divorce anthem. And... this is hard, “Love On Top.” Kenrya? Kenrya: All right. Listen here. So I think the first one is my first favorite that I've been ever had of her, so it's got to go on the list, it's “Get Me Bodied.” I can listen to “Get Me Bodied” over and over, and I have all these great memories of like... So every time, we play the extended version in this house. And so we do all the things, me and my kid, we walk across the floor, we do it all. And so it's got a lot of great memories because I just fucking love that song. I can't really dance that much anymore. I can't actually dance to the song anymore because of the energy that it requires, but it just makes me happy. Kenrya: “Party”? I think it just goes up. So the theme you'll see, I like her faster songs. I like the ballads, but the ballads are not the ones that I play all the time. What are you about to say, E? Erica: No, “Party” reminds me of a very specific homecoming at Bar 7, fucking packed to the gills, we're standing on the- Kenrya: On the banquettes. Erica: Yeah. Standing, drunk as shit, singing “Party.” And if I'm not mistaken, we were drinking out of a bottle, passing that bitch around. Kenrya: That was a pre-COVID thing that we did. Erica: And Bar 7 is literally like this big, and them motherfuckers would pack [crosstalk 00:50:07]. Kenrya: Like, try to go to the bathroom, literally my feet are off the ground because I can't, there's so many people. God, I used to hate having to go pee in that place. And... Oh wait, I had another one and I have now forgotten what it was. I'll come back with my third one because I lost it from my brain. Erica: Okay, Katrina, your turn. Katrina Jackson: Okay. I'll balance you out because I prefer her ballads. So again, “Love On Top,” the “Homecoming” version, even though sometimes I do play the studio version because I just want to hear that part at the end, where she is just like... And then it's also staged a bit like too... I prefer the live version. Kenrya: You've got to get the modulation because it's just goosebumps. Yep. Erica: I know exactly what I'm thinking. Katrina Jackson: And then I am a sucker for “Blue.” It's just the sweetest song ever. And [inaudible 00:51:14] I'm absolutely part of the Ivy League, we do what we can. And then... Oh, shit. What was my third? Oh, actually this is not really a ballad, but “Me, Myself and I” will... I think I was going through a breakup, so it has like a very [crosstalk 00:51:33]. Erica: Bitch got herself the best breakup song. Ooh, that's a good breakup song. That shit will have you changing your oil by yourself like, "Fuck it." Kenrya: Wait. Oh, that actually reminds me of my third one. It's “Grown Woman.” Katrina Jackson: Yes. Oh, I almost chose that. Kenrya: Yeah. “Grown Woman.” Which you can only... you have to watch the video to hear the song, which is fine because I adore- Katrina Jackson: I have a rip of that from some video from somewhere, I don't play. Kenrya: I just put the fucking video on, on my phone. I don't care. Erica: I was also going to say “End of Time,” just because I love the performance, the one that she did, I want to say it was like at some like London stadium. Remember she was like, "Beyonce is going to be at the Oscars." And she's like- Kenrya: Cuts her. Yeah. Erica: Zoomed in. She did a Zoom performance that... So anyway. Okay. Last top three. Top three foods. Katrina Jackson: Damn. Sushi, burritos, gumbo. I'm just real hungry. Erica: [crosstalk 00:52:43] We could eat [crosstalk 00:52:44], it's okay. Kenrya: You're right. Those are all delicious things. Well, I can't eat gumbo, but those are delicious things. Katrina Jackson: Why can't you eat gumbo? Erica: You can eat gumbo. Kenrya: It always has meat in it. Erica: But you could do it. You can do it without, with just the seafood. Kenrya: Yeah. But whoever does that? Katrina Jackson: No, I know lots of people who do that. Kenrya: Oh I don't. I need those people cooking for me. Erica: Shit, I can do it. Katrina Jackson: Yeah, it doesn't have to apparently. So my mother's family is from Louisiana, a part of them are, but I'm from California. But apparently in Louisiana, you're not supposed to be mix the meat and seafood, which I did not realize. So apparently if you go to Louisiana, you can get just the seafood gumbo. Erica: I have bastardized gumbo. Katrina Jackson: Haven't we all. Erica: And it's good gumbo, but I would never put it against like real... Kenrya: Yeah. I always end up having to get like a seafood etoufee because meat. Everything's always got that fucking andouille sausage in it which... Katrina Jackson: Yeah. But apparently it's not traditional. So if you go to Louisiana, you should be okay. But yeah, we bastardize it, we're like what is in the fridge? What did we get from the butcher? Erica: I literally put chicken wings in my gumbo. Katrina Jackson: Yes. Same. I grew up with the little drumettes. Erica: Yeah. Yeah, them little joints at the [crosstalk 00:53:59]. Katrina Jackson: Yeah, the little drumettes, a big ass thing with crab legs, shrimp, hot links, all the shit in there. That is not traditional. Erica: Damn, I'm going to make some gumbo this week. I'm going to make some gumbo this week, my son going out because he can't- Kenrya: He don't have seafood. Erica: He can't have seafood or some fucked up [inaudible 00:54:16]. Kenrya: Yay. Erica: Okay. Kenrya: And what are you reading right now? Katrina Jackson: Stuff I don't even want to talk about because it's trash, but [inaudible 00:54:29]. Kenrya: That's okay. Katrina Jackson: I'm on a science fiction kick right now. And I'm reading a whole bunch of not classic science fiction, it's all a mess. I'm mostly reading it and being unhappy because my brain likes to pull things apart and I'm just like, "What's happening here? Why is this happening? Why did he write it this way?" So I'm reading the Dune series because I like that movie. I love some Zendaya, so I'll watch damn near anything she's in. And then, here we are. And then I'm reading the “Wheel of Time” series, which is an honest to God mess. But I- Kenrya: And they're just... Are you reading it because did you just watch it? Katrina Jackson: Yeah. And I just want to know. But I did just finish “Barracoon” by Zora Hurston, which I'm reading for a class. Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. Erica: Okay. What's turning you on today? Katrina Jackson: Sleep. Nothing. Nothing. I'm dealing with seasonal depression, and- Erica: We're just making it. Katrina Jackson: We're just making it. Yeah. Kenrya: Yeah. Katrina Jackson: That's all right. Kenrya: That's the thing. What's up next for you? What are you working on? Katrina Jackson: Like eight things at once because even though I just told you all I'm working on my time, I'm putting up boundaries, that still means I'm working on like 3,000 things. So I'm working on three projects right now at various stages. I'm finishing the last novel in my Mafia series, which is going to be the last white dude y'all see from me for a hot second. I'm working on the second book of my “Love At Last” series called “One More Valentine” about a divorced couple getting back together. And I literally, just this morning, started my next Patreon serial which is going to be an erotic romance set during the Harlem Renaissance, another polyamorous, but this one's MMF, so we'll see. Kenrya: Okay. Sounds interesting. Y'all need to get on this motherfucking Patreon. Y'all heard that. By the time you hear this episode, it'll be up. You need to go on and get with that, so [crosstalk 00:56:49]. Katrina Jackson: Don't over promise because I am trash. Erica: You are an amazing writer and sometimes perfection takes a little bit longer. Katrina Jackson: Thank you. But I'll send you that one and we can maybe talk about my very big message to the historical romance community, which is our ancestors will fucking stop writing these sweet historical romances only. Thank you. I'll hop off my footbox now. Erica: Yeah, we featured it. Kenrya: They made us. Katrina Jackson: Hello. Erica: We featured a historical romance and- Katrina Jackson: I know you did, and I'm excited. Erica: ... it was hot as fuck. Katrina Jackson: It's just so much space for like, especially in those moments where they were in smokey clubs, listening to jazz and shit, all that like alcohol had no regulation. Erica: I said, I was like, "It took me adulthood." As a kid, you learn about the Harlem Renaissance, and then you grow up. It was like, "These niggas was fucking. There's no way-" Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:57:49] They was drunk, they was high, they was fucking. Erica: And it wasn't happening. You had all these good unmitigated drugs and whatever you call it. All this moonshine that could turn you blind, it of course had to have your pussy sparkling, so yeah. Katrina Jackson: Your pussy sparkling. So same thing about like the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Power era, I mean absolutely trash, a whole bunch of terrible people there. Erica: Misogyny... Katrina Jackson: A mess. But also- Erica: I would've been throwing that ass. Katrina Jackson: Thank you. Thank you. They were out here planning for the revolution while butt naked in bed with an Afro. It was just... it's my favorite thing about history. Kenrya: Yeah. I would read that. Katrina Jackson: Hello. I really need someone to write it. Because as a historian, a lot of historical romance authors are very much dedicated to writing Black people back into history, Godspeed. We understand it, respectability politics, no judgment. But also I didn't read a whole bunch of these people with memoirs and it was some shit happening and it was not all straight- Erica: It was fucking bucket. Katrina Jackson: That's the other thing. It was not all straight, so we need to let that go. History is fascinating and horny, and I feel like we are skimping on the last part. Erica: History is fascinating and horny. Kenrya: History is fascinating and horny. Yeah. Katrina Jackson: My dog's going to be like, "What the hell is wrong with you?" Erica: I was about to say, "Just know that's going to be a slide on the social media for this episode." FYI. Yeah. Kenrya: It can't be undone. Katrina Jackson: It's true though. I only take that thing when I'm wrong or lying, and I'm not either those things. Kenrya: I like it. So folks can find you on KatrinaJacksonAuthor.com. And where else can they find you? Katrina Jackson: I guess you can find me on Twitter being trifling every now and then, not as much anymore, @katrinaJax with an X. Katrina Jackson: I'm on Instagram a little bit @KatJacksonBooks, I don't even know that handle, so don't quote me on that. Kenrya: That's it. I'm looking at [crosstalk 01:00:06]. Katrina Jackson: I keep thinking about regularizing but I'm just... I don't care. And then I'm also on Patreon, I'm trying to be on Patreon a little bit more. My top tier, we get together once a month and just talk. I don't even know what we talk about. Erica: Jesus, you've got some good hair. I clicked on your Instagram just to make sure that that was it, and there's this picture of you and your hair is just like... Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Erica: Just beautiful. Katrina Jackson: Thank you. I do love my hair. I'll be out here. I'll be letting a whole bunch of things ago, I don't be calling people back on time, but I do love my hair. Erica: Your hair is fucking like... Do not get mad if I see you and I'm like... You're like, "Bitch, are you trying to nuzzle my hair?" Katrina Jackson: Do it, because look- Erica: "My bad." Katrina Jackson: Look. I'm the person who I'm like, "I know we shouldn't be just out here touching Black women's hair." This is why I'm going to ask you, "Can I touch your hair?" I want to touch everybody's hair. Or if you have like- Erica: Your shit look [inaudible 01:01:07]. Katrina Jackson: I love hair. I'm definitely that kind of Black girl who's just like, I want to talk to anybody about whatever their hair looks like. If you got good braids, I'm like, "Who did your braids? What's going on? Let's go." I love hair. Kenrya: That's how I feel about this sweater that you're wearing. I love this like sheer situation. I'm fascinated. I love it. Love it. Love it. Katrina Jackson: I'm coming back here again, y'all got compliments. Kenrya: That's cause we just... we love. Erica: Yeah, we love your work. You're just... And this conversation made me love your writing that much more, so thank you. Katrina Jackson: Thank you. Kenrya: And you. Katrina Jackson: You're like, "Also your ass." Erica: [crosstalk 01:01:52]. That'd be real fucked up. Kenrya: Our value is not in our work, it is in our being. Erica: Yes. No, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sorry, I do not mean to make it [crosstalk 01:01:59]. Katrina Jackson: But I do consider parts of my work like parts of me. Yeah. I mean it's like, whatever, I write a whole bunch of academics who need to learn how to take a fucking nap and drink some water and let people love them because I have had that problem, people I love have had that problem. I mean, I'm not all of these people. Lord, I wish I was. But parts of them are parts of me, so I didn't take any offense at all. Erica: Thank you. Kenrya: Well, on that note, that is it for this week's episode of The Turn On. Thank you for coming on. Katrina Jackson: Thank you for having me. Thank you for letting me harass you into having me. I have no judgment. I woke up one day and I was like, "I'm about to get on The Turn On pod," my Twitter will be like... Erica: I was like, "This was the best DM slide I've had." Kenrya: Yeah. Like, "The fuck?" We're easy. We're real easy. Erica: Yeah, we're easy. Katrina Jackson: My favorite people usually are. Erica: Yes, so... Kenrya: No, thank you for saying something. Closed mouths don't get fed- Katrina Jackson: Also true. Kenrya: ... not on this fucking boulevard, so. Katrina Jackson: Also true. Kenrya: Yeah, all day. So thank you and thank you to everyone for listening and we'll see y'all next week. Take care. [theme music] Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode. Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com. Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions. Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen. Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla. |
The Turn On
The Turn On is a podcast for Black people who want to get off. To open their minds. To learn. To be part of a community. To show that we love and fuck too, and it doesn't have to be political or scandalous or dirty. Unless we want it to be. Archives
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