Category: Married

Season 5 | Episode 8.5 | The Turn On x Katrina Jackson

5/11/2022

Book, "Looking" by Katrina Jackson | Patreon | Preorder
Author, Katrina Jackson | Website | Twitter | Instagram
Recommended Books:
- "Dune" series by Frank Herbert | Bookshop | Amazon
- "Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan | Bookshop | Amazon
- "Barracoon: The Story of the Last 'Black Cargo'" by Zora Neale Hurston | Bookshop | Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
Kenrya: Come here. Get off.

[theme music]

Kenrya: We are happy to be here with y'all and we are very happy because today we are going to be talking to writer Katrina Jackson, pronouns, she and her. Katrina's a college professor by day and she writes erotica, erotic romance, and historical fiction by weekend. She writes racially diverse and queer stories that show love in the world in all its beauty and diversity. Hey, Katrina.

Katrina Jackson: Hi.

Kenrya: Thanks for coming on.

Katrina Jackson: I'm stressed, but all right, I'm here.

Erica: Bitch. Bitch, you should be stressed. You should be happy that we are not in the same room because I would fucking hit you. You wrote your ass off in this book like bitch, I hope you don't mind me calling you bitch.

Kenrya: Let me turn my damn volume down because you done blew out my fucking ears and I can't-

Erica: Bitch. We love all your books, right. “Welcome to Sea Port,” perfect. But this book, girl, we go in and in about it in the last episode about how beautifully you write and how steamy your scenes are. But you just capture it, so.

Kenrya: And it was so cool because I could see your growth. I was like... the writer in me is like, "Oh my God." We love-

Katrina Jackson: I literally...

Kenrya: Yeah. Go ahead.

Katrina Jackson: I told someone that recently that I'm just not the writer I was in like 2015, and that makes me really happy. There are some projects where I see that growth and it's really nice when other people see it too.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: This one was-

Kenrya: When I say I devoured this book, like legit, I think I started it like before bed or like while I was waiting on my partner to get here, and I finished it the next afternoon maybe. Just flew through, didn't want to put it down.

Erica: It took me longer because I kept stopping to masturbate.

Katrina Jackson: Okay. Y'all tell, not like you specifically, but people tell me that all the time about like certain stories and I'm like, "Okay, I'm happy to have-"

Erica: Now, this one. This one I was like, "Oh, this bitch is on fire."

Katrina Jackson: Oh, yay.

Erica: Yeah, so. I call you a bitch in the most loving way possible because bitch-

Katrina Jackson: And I take it as such.

Erica: Bitch you did a good job, bitch. Okay. So thank you for joining us.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Erica: What did little Katrina want to be when she was growing up?

Katrina Jackson: Not broke, honestly.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: Listen. That there, right there.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Kenrya: Say less.

Katrina Jackson: Right. Yeah, I grew up very poor. So I wanted to be not broke for sure. And then I wanted to be like, I think, a lot of little Black girls, I wanted to be a lawyer. That seemed like a legit career where you did not have to be broke. And I guess the other is doctor, but I don't like blood or bones and anything like that. So I was like, "I love books. I can do that." And then I also wanted to be a writer, but I thought that, again, like a lot of little Black kids, not even little Black girls, that seems so unattainable and I'm a pretty practical person. Even to this day I'm like, "I don't really understand how writers survive with this kind of environment. I need some kind of security."

Katrina Jackson: So yeah, and then I became a historian later because I realized, one, I don't like tests and lawyering seems like a whole bunch of tests to get to where you need to be. And I also don't like environments that seem needlessly combative, and that's how I understood law school. I had a friend who started law school before I did, and I was like, "Oh, girl. This is your life? What is going on?"

Erica: "Why are we arguing all the damn time?"

Katrina Jackson: Like literally. And I'm an arguer, but even I have my limits. And I was like, "So this is your job, you just..." So, no.

Kenrya: It seems stressful.

Katrina Jackson: It seems very stressful. And so I ended up in grad school, which unfortunately was not that different, but it seemed different on the surface. And then I was like, "Oh, damn. This is just the same thing, but three more years. What?" So, yeah.

Kenrya: Okay. So then how did you come to be a writer?

Katrina Jackson: So I wrote when I was younger. I was definitely a kid... I'm still pretty shy, but I was a very shy kid. So I was really internal, I spent a lot of time by myself. I read and then wrote a lot. And then I wrote horror stories when I was a kid. And then in high school I was very dramatic and wrote a whole bunch of slam poetry, and that was that. And did that into college. And then I just stopped writing when I went to grad school because I think a lot of my friends after college had lives and I just stayed in school. I don't know if that makes sense, but when you go to grad school or like some kind of extended school after-

Kenrya: It's consuming.

Katrina Jackson: It is. And so all of my friends were like getting married and being in relationships and I was at the library, checking out 60 books at a time like, "Can I just come pick these up later?" I wasn't living in the real world, it felt like. And I was working on my master's and hating it, disliking the whole process. My advisor was kind of a mess. I was more than kind of a mess. And so I just started, first of all, reading fan fiction again and then reading erotica again. And then I just started writing my own. And that was like, I don't know, like 2008. And then I've just been writing consistently since then.

Kenrya: All right.

Erica: So who or what inspires you to write?

Katrina Jackson: I mean, there are lots of writers that I have loved and I remember sort of going back to in that moment. I was definitely... I have always read erotica when I should not have been.

Kenrya: Same. Same.

Katrina Jackson: So I definitely remember reading that Anne Rice erotica when I was far too young to be reading any of her books, let alone that series. I had a cousin who was like my gateway to urban fiction and she would just hand me whatever she was reading. So that's how I read my first Zane, and I read Zane very consistently after that. And then, so I think those writers sort of like set in a path for me. And there were other people, I always liked Sista Soulja et cetera.

Katrina Jackson: But I think in terms of my own writing now, I'm a little adversarial in that I will write a book because I don't see anything either like it or with people like me in it, which is definitely where “Looking” came from. But all of my books are sort of like, "Oh, there are all these things that exist in romance or erotica, but there aren't fat Black girls, there aren't Black girls at all, there aren't Black men." And so I am a little adversarial in that I'm just like, "Oh, I don't see it or I can't find it and I've looked. So here is whatever I'm writing now."

Kenrya: Right. I know you were saying earlier, the idea that folks are just out here writing and supporting themselves is still kind of like, "The fuck?" How do you balance your writing with your day job because that's a lot too?

Katrina Jackson: Yeah. I mean, so I say there are like two phases. So certainly before 2019, I was just writing late into the night, early in the morning, in little snatches when I was in a meeting I didn't want to be in, whatever. And I would just kind of fit it wherever I could. And I burnt out, so I do not recommend that. And then now I'm trying to be a little bit more rigid in terms of scheduling and even scheduling breaks, but fitting it in where I'm naturally most productive. So I will wait here today because I'm most productive in terms of writing in the morning. So I'll wake up, make coffee, and I can sit down at my computer and write for a little bit.

Katrina Jackson: And I'm trying to be kind about thinking about when my job at the university actually requires me to work because I think academics are really great about working 24/7 and never giving themselves a break or prioritizing things that their university wants or that they say tenure needs or whatever, whether or not it feeds them. And in the past two years I've been really firm about when my university requires me to work, like when I'm teaching, when I have to be at meetings, when my students or colleagues are more likely to contact me. And then outside of those times I'm not working for my university. I'm just not doing that. And then that time can be anything else.

Kenrya: That's what's up.

Erica: It's crazy.

Kenrya: Go ahead.

Erica: No, you go, Kenrya.

Kenrya: No, I was just... A lot of folks on my Twitter timeline are like Black academics or whatever, I don't know really how that happened. But folks are always just talking about how the academy is, about the anti-Blackness of it and about how one of the ways that that comes through is this culture of overwork and under-reward, right? And so much of combating that I think is remembering the agency that you have, which is what it sounds like you're doing.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah. And I think the really sad part is I knew all this. I knew all this before I got my degree and I got my job. I was really lucky in that all of my PhD advisors were people of color, most of them were Black, of varying generations even, right. And so somehow even, though I watched their careers be disrupted by the ways in which departments didn't reward them... like my first advisor was certainly a mess, but he was a very intelligent man, not the most effective teacher, but just ridiculously smart. Right after I got my master's, he didn't get tenure and then he left. And I was like, "Well then what does that mean? What do I do?" And I was saved by a whole bunch of Black academics and other people of color.

Katrina Jackson: But even at the time, even as I was like, "Oh, I'm free of him." I was like, "This is actually incredibly ridiculous." This is a man who did all the things, in some cases more of the things, that he should do and his university didn't reward him with the thing that academics are supposed to be rewarded with, which is tenure. And so then he moved around. And I knew all of that, I saw it happen to other people and I fell right into that trap where it was like, "Okay, one more thing. I'm going to take on one more committee. I'm going to advise one more student. I'm going to grade until two o'clock in the morning," or whatever it was.

Katrina Jackson: And they tell you, this is going to be a bit adjacent, but they tell you, "Oh, after tenure it'll be better." And so many academics learn, "Oh, actually after tenure, it isn't better." And then especially being someone from my background who has... I have no safety net, I do not come from a family of means. I take care of myself, like in people who are relying on me in some way. And so they tell you after tenure the money will be good. And the money's not good when you came in making less than your colleagues who are white and or who got that job a generation before. I mean, it's just a whole bunch of lies. And so setting that boundary was part of me finally accepting that I wasn't going to like, whatever, talented tenth my way out of the bullshit.

Kenrya: Shit. Yeah.

Erica: That's a word.

Kenrya: That's a whole word.

Erica: Especially for our cousins that are looking to head into academia.

Kenrya: Or who are looking to break out.

Katrina Jackson: Well, look. Look.

Erica: So buy this book.

Katrina Jackson: Buy this book so I can break out.

Erica: It can be found on Patreon.

Kenrya: Exactly. Lord.

Erica: So here on the podcast, we use erotica as the jumping off point for conversations just about everything, including sex. So we always like to ask about the lessons folks learned when they were growing up. So what was the prevailing attitude about sex and gender in your home growing up?

Katrina Jackson: Oh, that's a great question. I think I got a lot of mixed messages about both. On the one hand, I think I got a lot of messages that sex was taboo or secret. And on the other hand, in some ways I grew up in a family that was fairly liberated relative to sex, partially because I didn't grow up in the kind of family that tied sex and marriage and children. My mother was a single mother, actually so were both of my aunts. And so I grew up in a family that was really female-centered. And yet I also learned really sort of negative and regressive messages about what women could do, what women should want out of life, and how men should behave.

Katrina Jackson: And then on the other hand, I grew up with a grandfather who was always literally right there helping his three children with, at least from my child eyes, very little judgment about how they handled their lives. And then I grew up in a family that sort of revered his relationship with my grandmother. And then a few years ago, my mother and I found out that my grandparents were never married. And so I had all of these very mixed messages about gender and sex. And I think a lot of my, in particular my 30s, have been sort of pulling apart those messages and trying to save what I think actually served me.

Katrina Jackson: I am not married. I have no kids, which is very rare in my family, generally speaking. And there are moments in my life where I felt very unhappy about that as if I was failing in some way. And yet I don't actually think that's a message that people in my family have necessarily put on my back, but it's something that I thought I should feel bad about. So I also would say though it's true that like, I don't come from a family that talks about sex or gender explicitly, a lot of what I learned was because I was a really quiet and observant child, which meant that I learned some of those hypocrisies because I didn't have the full story, right, so.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So last week, as we said, we read an excerpt from “Looking,” thanks again for that. And the book stars Nadia and Darren, a married couple that realizes that they want to bring a third, Jourdan, into their marriage. Where did the idea for this particular book come from?

Katrina Jackson: So I love polyamory. It is in a whole bunch of my books. But I had always written polyamorous relationships where everyone is very experienced or at least very ready. And for the longest I had wondered what it would be like to write a married couple that has no idea what they're doing. And in particular, also to write a queer woman who realizes in her 30s that she's queer because that had just not been an exploration she had gone on before. And so this was the story. And in the beginning it was supposed to be, first of all, shorter. The plan was that this would be like a smooth 15-

Erica: We said that. We said that in the episode. I was like, "Is this a short? Because we read it so quickly, it was hard to like... We couldn't recall.

Kenrya: But I remember you tweeting that you kept trying to write shorts, but them shits kept turning into full-on projects.

Katrina Jackson: Yes. So this one was supposed to be like, I don't know, 15,000 words, something like that. It's 50, and I don't know how. I mean, I know how that happened, but I was just definitely like, "What the fuck is going on here?" But it's because in the end I really wanted to write a relationship that had, because I prized this in polyamorous romances that are done well in my opinion, where everyone has a distinct relationship with one another. And that's how I approached this section.

Katrina Jackson: So like Darren and Jourdan have a specific relationship, Jourdan and Nadia have a specific relationship... whatever, all of those iterations, and that mattered to me. And I just, in my foolishness, thought I could do that very quickly and be like, "Well, story over. We're done." And that's just not realistic. So yeah, it sort of came from really wanting to think about what it's like to build a foundation of a relationship and not have to think about or... 10 years they have gone through all these things because you can imagine them going through these things hopefully because they have very carefully set a foundation for a relationship they'd like to have together.

Kenrya: Right.

Erica: We've had interviews in the past with people that practiced ethical non-monogamy. And one of the things that stood out is, I think one of the questions we asked was like, "What do you want people to know about ethical non-monog?" And I recall one of the guests saying, "Our relationships aren't interchangeable. We have very specific relationships with each person." And I think it's beautiful that you were intentional about that in this book, and it came across. So that was dope. As we mentioned, we featured another one of your books, “Welcome to Sea Port,” on the show. And that book was also about a polyamorous relationship. So what draws to you to write about these characters?

Katrina Jackson: I'm bi, and so I like to write whatever I like, and it's easy if I can put it all in one book. But I don't have to think about it. So I think that's one thing, but-

Erica: Why choose?

Katrina Jackson: Yeah. Why choose, truly? But I also think too that so much of what I like about polyamorous relationships is I think the hopeful, if it's done well, again, for me, is the intentionality, right. I think it's super easy to write, and maybe it's accidental, but I think it's really easy to write sort of, in particular the MF erotica and male/female erotica or romance where it's not intentional, like I'm just supposed to believe these people are together because they want to be together and there's nothing sort of there, right. And while I love insta-love or instant lust, I think you still have to have something to get past just the first sexual encounter or whatever. Now, if it's just the first sexual encounter, Lord also send me that, right, I'll also write that. But if-

Kenrya: And I'm the queen of being like, "But why do you like him? He's an asshole." Or like, "What? What is it?"

Katrina Jackson: But you don't have to like someone necessarily to fuck them, which is lovely, right. And so there should be, at least for me, a distinction. And I think polyamorous romances actually do require you to be more intentional because it's not just like, "Oh, we have this one night stand." And like in the ‘Welcome to Sea Port’ series it's not like, "Oh, we had this one night stand. I'm never going to see you again." This town is that big, right. So you're going to see these people again, and so there has to be something there. So I do like the intentionality of a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, I would say those are the two big things.

Kenrya: Right.

Erica: Okay. And that kind of leads us to our next question. So in the last episode we talked about how Jourdan's experience caused her the first blow up that they had. We talked about how her past experiences caused her to come in hot in an interaction with Darren. And it rang so true to us, I was reading that shit like, "Whoa."

Erica: So how do you write internal shit so well? Because we feel it, and even as adults, it takes us a while to even do all the links and then be like, "Oh, shit. That's why." And you write all of that shit out. You write it out and then it sounds good, so...

Kenrya: And it made sense, right, when we started because we didn't... So we're trying not to spoil, so we didn't talk about what the blow up was. But when we thought about their previous interactions [crosstalk 00:23:10].

Erica: How you laid the scene, it was just like, "Oh. Shit. Yeah."

Katrina Jackson: So, one, I'm a pantser, so none of that was planned.

Kenrya: I was going to ask, are you a pantser or, what is it, plotter?

Katrina Jackson: Plotter. Yeah.

Kenrya: Is that what the other people are called? Okay.

Katrina Jackson: I could not plot my way out of a paper bag. I could not. But I-

Erica: You're doing well. You're doing something right, so just keep at it.

Katrina Jackson: I think though, that it's nice to hear that you all think I do internal stuff well because I'm not an external conflict writer. I almost never write external conflict. And if there is external conflict, it is usually based in the internals of the relationship anyway.

Erica: Do you know what? That is why I love... didn't I say that this book was gentle? Your last book was gentle, it was just... It's-

Kenrya: Just them getting through their own shit.

Erica: Getting through their own shit.

Katrina Jackson: Because that's hard.

Kenrya: It's not some ex waiting in the wings to fuck shit up. It's not some vindictive bitch on the corner who want him to... It's just working on your own shit.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah, which is hard as fuck.

Erica: I didn't mean to cut you off, but that was...

Katrina Jackson: No, it's fine. But again, it's nice to be seen. It's always nice to be seen because I just, I think... Internal shit is hard, and I think we often in our society don't acknowledge that. And this is, for me personally, so often I am literally my own barrier. People will be like, "Ooh, I want to do this thing with you. Ooh. I want to work with you. Ooh, I want to support you." And I'm like, "But why?" And then that but why could stop me in my tracks forever or months or weeks.

Katrina Jackson: And again, like all that stuff that I've sort of learned in my family or I thought I learned in my family, so much of that I had to realize in my 30s was also me, right. Me making connections, me deciding that I was going to give that space in my brain, even when I was actively saying no to other things, I made decisions and I stood in my way. And I think a lot of that comes out in my writing because... so I, again, will get rid of external conflict or not even consider an external conflict because for however many people in your relationship, you all have to get out of your own way, you all have to decide to get out of your own way to be in this relationship.

Katrina Jackson: And that is a lot of work when done well, right. It really can't be that like, "Oh, we just decided I'm going to get over all this trauma in my past and tomorrow is a new day and everything is lovely." Which is why in so many of my books, I will even say I don't traditionally think of any of my books as a happily-ever-after, I do tend to think of them as a happy-for-now because they still have so much to go through, right. So I think in the book where I think, "Okay, you can imagine them in two years or five years or 10 years still having the tools to work through things or at least being willing to get those tools."

Kenrya: That's a really interesting point. I barely think about where people end unless it feels like it went on too long, right. I'm thinking of one book that I read in preparation for the show at some point where I was like, "Oh, we can stop right here." But it did not stop right there. It was fine because I liked the characters, but I remember being like, "I could have just imagined the rest of this and it would've been okay."

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah. Huh, that's interesting. But happily ever after is such a huge part of what makes this genre move forward. I never thought about the idea of happy for now.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Kenrya: Much more realistic.

Katrina Jackson: I mean, kind of. And again, I think everyone is a different writer and that's fine. And I do also know that because of that, I'm not going to be everyone's favorite writer, which is again also fine with me. But I do think that my stories, I do, stories like this, obviously not all of them, stories like this, I am trying for realism, right. So what 100% makes sense for someone in Jourdan's position to come into this relationship with a slightly older, established, married couple and have to reevaluate herself because they're reevaluating themselves, but for very different reasons that hopefully speak to people like this, because I am writing people who are like people I know or who I imagine exist in this world.

Erica: Also, even the internal conflict was not, "My husband thinks she's hotter," or, "My wife thinks she's hotter." It was just normal shit that people deal with.

Kenrya: Well, it wasn't the shit that people would project onto a couple that was practicing in this way, right. Like isn't that the thing that we would project on people, "Oh, it's got to be about attraction."

Erica: Yeah. Exactly.

Kenrya: "It's got to be jealousy."

Erica: Exactly. And it's like, "Nah, she's just feeling her own... Yeah, she's going through her own shit that's normal that if you were just with one person that was super established, you'd be having these same concerns." It was good, yeah.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you.

Erica: I keep saying that, but...

Katrina Jackson: Thank you.

Kenrya: No, that was an excellent point. You're right. Yeah, absolutely. So this book is part of your Patreon rewards. We're wondering what made you decide to go with that distribution model for this?

Katrina Jackson: Oh, not asking me questions where I have to be self-reflective. I hate that for me.

Katrina Jackson: So I think some of this was part of me setting a boundary. I think if you'll talk to any indie author, they will tell you that they have to produce at a certain level to stay on top of the algorithm to sort of stay fresh in their readers' minds, whatever. And there was a moment in my career where that's exactly what I wanted. Like in 2020, I was like, "Yep. I want to be on top of that. I want to be publishing regularly. I want you to not forget me and whatever."

Katrina Jackson: And then for a lot of different reasons I had to, one, let that go. And then, two, realized that wasn't actually what I want. I don't want to be everyone's favorite Black indie author or Black author of romance or erotica. Truly, I do not. Please, Jesus, let a bitch write, right. I think that carries a lot of weight. I think it carries a lot of responsibility and I value peace straight up, right.

Katrina Jackson: And there are some stories that will be harder for me to sell. This is not necessarily one, this is very much in my larger body of work. But there are other things that I have put on Patreon or will put on Patreon that will be a little bit harder to sell wide and that's okay. And so I wanted to, one, create a little bit of space between me and what feels like a grind, where I'm always trying to pump something out.

Kenrya: Churn something out.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah. So that I could then have this space to try something out, something a little different. Or even like with this one, I serialized it, so I published about 20,000 or so words a month. And that worked out really well, especially in the beginning, not so much at the end where I was like, "Oh, we've got to wrap this shit up. This story is ending," but it wasn't ending.

Katrina Jackson: But that was really nice to do because then it meant that I was still always writing, I was making room for writing in my life, but I wasn't publishing a book a month or publishing a novel a month. And then it also meant that people who... like I have a very random or have very random sections of my readership. Some people only read something, some people read everything. The people who end up at my Patreon will read, for the most part, everything that I write. And so this was nice because it meant that they got to get that stuff first or in this case they are the only people who get this. And so I am at least present in their mind in a way that I don't have to be present in this sort of general romance space because I don't really want to be present there, at least not in the same way.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erica: Okay. So... Oh. Go ahead.

Kenrya: I've just... one thing that has happened for me over this last year, probably a year and a half, it kind of feels like it's mirroring like what you're talking about, this real reevaluation of, "What does success look like for you? And what are you willing to do to get it? And what does it do to your quality of life as you chase that?"

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Erica: And the quality of work.

Katrina Jackson: And the quality of the work, 100%. Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Katrina Jackson: I think-

Kenrya: Go. Yeah.

Katrina Jackson: ... you're 100% correct. I'm a fairly low-key person, period. Even in my academic work, I don't have any particular... which is why I publish as an academic much less frequently than other people want me to or other people in my position. I would like to do the good work, but I would also like to sleep. I would also like... and I have not done a great job of that by any means, but I would like to do those things.

Katrina Jackson: And so I do produce, as an academic, a little less frequently. But I also don't need to be out here giving the big lecture in my field or publishing a book every other year or whatever. I don't. It doesn't matter to me. I would much rather be present in my own life, be present for my students who are much more focused and much more real in my life than like whatever accolades come from publishing in certain ways. But with that said, I think it's also really easy, even when you make peace with that decision, to have moments where you think, "I would love to be recognized. I would love for people to not forget that I exist."

Katrina Jackson: And I think in the last two years I had that moment where I was like, "I would love to be recognized. I would love to have people know that I exist." I would love to not see people on my timeline on Twitter say, "Oh, I wish there was a... whatever, this kind of book." And I'm like, "Here I am." But would I love that recognition over peace? Not so much. And so I had to deal with that.

Kenrya: Yeah. That's pretty powerful when you get to it, it doesn't mean it's easy, but-

Katrina Jackson: And it doesn't mean you stay there either, right. You're going to have those moments where you just have to remind yourself of what matters to you, of that core goal. And also too, I think you said, which I have also struggled with, is there are certain things I'm not willing to do. There are things I'm not willing to write to be more successful, straight up. And I've said this publicly, I'll say it again, I truly don't give a shit. Every time someone acts a fucking mess, I turn one white character who I want to write into some person of color, I don't give a fuck.

Katrina Jackson: I am not interested in writing... And look, my Mafia series fucked up my percentages, so no one's seeing a white person in my catalog for a hot second. I don't care. And I will always unabashedly write queer Black people and Black men. I mean, I think that is a thing that we, as in romance, need to deal with. The lack of Black men in certain spaces is very particular. The lack of queer Black men and women certainly is a problem. So I was very deliberate here in that everyone in “Looking” is Black, straight up.

Erica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, even in “Welcome to Sea Port,” what I loved, we just keep going back to all your books, in “Welcome to Sea Port,” I loved that the throuple was like everybody... wasn't just-

Kenrya: Everybody loving on everybody.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Erica: Yeah. It wasn't just a V, but it was a triangle. And that was refreshing to see because we don't see that, especially by Black writers, Black women writers. So we could talk and go on and on. Okay. So what did you learn from writing this book and what do you want readers to walk away with?

Katrina Jackson: I learned that I have a terrible grasp of time and how long the story will take, and I need to work on that, straight up.

Erica: It's to our benefit though.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you. I wish that was the joke answer, that is actually, literally, the answer.

Kenrya: Yeah. That's real shit [crosstalk 00:37:06] time management is important-

Katrina Jackson: It is.

Kenrya: ... and hard.

Katrina Jackson: And very hard. Very hard. So that's what I learned. I think what I want people to take away from it is things that I have had to deal with or am still dealing with internally, that it is really never too late to sort of reevaluate your life and really center the things that make you happy. And in that process, it is never too late to just not give a shit what everyone else thinks.

Kenrya: Yes. That's actually one of the things that really did stick with me and we didn't really talk about it. It's hard, since we want to talk about concepts, we also don't want to spoil shit. But the fact that they completely remade their life and their family,

Erica: Their family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We touched on it.

Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:38:00] That shit's hard. Yeah, we did a little bit. That shit's hard, and they was like, "Fuck, yeah."

Erica: "We're going to chase happiness. We're going to follow our joy." And that was... Yeah.

Kenrya: And there were never any moments where, again, you kept it to the internal conflict that wasn't about what the fuck other people were going to-

Erica: Never.

Kenrya: ... say in it. That was super refreshing because I think so often, and I've read, well, we've done, at this point, quite a few polyamorous books on the show, but often that is the conflict, right, we all go out and we have to deal with somebody being a bigot, that's always the thing. And that wasn't, and I love that that wasn't it because they figured that shit out together.

Katrina Jackson: I think-

Erica: Because there are bigger things to be more concerned about.

Katrina Jackson: Right.

Erica: And so... Oh, sorry.

Katrina Jackson: No, that's literally the point, right. That's literally the point. I do not tend to write a lot of kids in books, I don't care.

Erica: Fuck them kids.

Katrina Jackson: Right. I mean-

Erica: As a parent, I can say that.

Katrina Jackson: ... I love children, I just... but I have actually been writing a lot more kids accidentally in a bunch of my stories because I think that, like in this particular case, what is the point of worrying about what other people are going to think about their relationship when they have... Like Darren and Nadia have two sons who are primary, right. And so in the back of their mind is like, "Is this a good person? Could this be a good person for our child? And is this a good person who can be a part of our family?" And that has to override... if there was going to be any external conflict, it would've been that because that's the part that matters. But we are so worried about what some old white lady thinks about you holding your girlfriend's hand while your wife is there. I mean, it's just, what's the point?

Kenrya: Fuck her. Yeah.

Katrina Jackson: Truly, right. Or even just that the other bigger things are to consider how you make everyone in this relationship feel whole, right. How you deal with and handle of your needs. Like how you even deal with your living situation so that everyone has space, right, which is why that sort of epilogue is really significant because it, not to spoil, but it sort of shows you that everyone is in this relationship to make the entire family happy, not just themselves or not just one other person. And I think external conflict is hard, but so often it sort of takes over from doing the necessary internal work and the necessary work in your relationship or family in a book that you can end the story wherever it ends, whether it goes on too long or not, thinking this is a relationship that can last.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's real. It's like people who like to stir up drama rather than deal with their own shit.

Katrina Jackson: Hello. And I've been that person, so it don't make you happy.

Kenrya: It does not.

Erica: Do you have a favorite line or passage in this book?

Katrina Jackson: No, I forgot that whole thing. I published that last chapter on Patreon and I was like... You're lucky I remember names. Every time I write a sequel, I'm like, "Who is this person? Did I give them a last name? What color are their eyes? Are they tall, short?" I'm trash. Absolutely not.

Erica: Okay. And that is all right.

Kenrya: That's funny. What's your superpower?

Katrina Jackson: What? Right now I think it is my ability to learn how to be honest with myself or I am learning how to be honest with myself and it's hard and I'm doing it anyway.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.

Erica: Okay. So since we're talking about good things coming in threes, we're going to ask you your top three. So I'm going to name a category. I want you to give me your top three. Okay?

Katrina Jackson: Okay.

Erica: Top three people in the world.

Katrina Jackson: Aw, come on. Okay. Like my mama. I love all my nieces and nephews, but my middle niece is absolutely fantastic. And I mean, he has long since passed, but my grandfather is still my absolute favorite person.

Erica: Okay. Top three songs.

Katrina Jackson: So the first part of “Hold On” by Adele has a hold on me right now. Not the whole song, just the first two verses and the chorus, absolutely in love with that. The “Homecoming” version of “Formation,” absolute hold on me, play it all the time.

Kenrya: I listen to that album still.

Katrina Jackson: So often. Which is-

Kenrya: It is my favorite.

Erica: I can't listen to her regular music.

Katrina Jackson: No, because then you start singing.

Erica: I can't listen to a song without hearing the “Homecoming” [crosstalk 00:43:31].

Katrina Jackson: Yes.

Kenrya: Absolutely. It is just phenomenal.

Katrina Jackson: Absolutely. Which is why the third is actually the “Love On Top” version from “Homecoming,” which is my favorite version of “Love On Top.”

Erica: Y'all going to have me listening to Bey. Ooh, I'm going to listen when I get off...

Katrina Jackson: I just like the progression, like oh my God, I could-

Kenrya: And her transitions are the fucking best. And then when you can hear this other song coming in the background. And I still have moments from... So Erica and I have been to see her live [crosstalk 00:44:04].

Erica: Every single show since Mrs. Carter.

Katrina Jackson: Oh, okay.

Kenrya: Yeah. And all in different cities, we travel. But I remember the first show we went to, she was doing... Oh fuck. Oh God, I can't remember what the original song was, but she put “Flashing Lights” in it for two seconds and it sank into my soul. And so now every time I hear the song, I hear it, and I can't forget. Her transitions are just like fucking transcendent. I just-

Katrina Jackson: I think if you grew up on DJ mixes on the radio, she speaks to that part of you. And there is nothing I love more than an uncanny remix that brings something back from forever ago, something you grew up with, something you ain’t heard in 10 years.

Erica: That's my shit.

Katrina Jackson: Literally. And so I also... it is no shock that I prefer the live versions of a whole bunch of her songs to the studio versions because just what she does with [crosstalk 00:45:10].

Kenrya: When you hear... like when you know, I'll be like, "Yes. Yes. This is for real niggas." Like when you hear the two seconds and you know exactly what's about to come next and you get hyped. Like right before “Swag Surfin'” comes in and you know that's what's about to fucking happen, and you know that's just meant for y'all, mm-mm (negative), can't. Yeah.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: I get hype. Sorry.

Katrina Jackson: No, for real though, it's a perfect album, to be honest with you. For me at least, it's a perfect album.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: And I had the bootleg version the one where somebody had recorded the actual show. So I was listening to that for like the year before it came out. But the real one is so much better, I just... but I still have that one too.

Erica: You can hear like the live [crosstalk 00:45:58].

Katrina Jackson: Even the band, there are moments when it's just the band and I'm like, "Oh, this is some real nigga shit."

Kenrya: That whole transition into “Party” where they're doing all the songs. Oh, bless them.

Erica: Okay. So this was not question, but I'm about to ask. Top three Beyoncé songs. Everybody has to answer. Top three Beyoncé songs.

Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:46:18] I don't know.

Katrina Jackson: Okay.

Kenrya: That's... Okay. You're playing.

Erica: I'm going to have to look at my phone.

Kenrya: Let me look at my playlist situation here.

Erica: Okay. This is... Oh, wow. Okay. So let me see what I got.

Katrina Jackson: I feel like the easiest way would just be to go to what I listen to all the time, but it's so mood specific [crosstalk 00:46:46].

Erica: Right.

Kenrya: Yeah, I got certain albums I listen to for certain things. Like when I wash my hair, I listen to “Black Is King.” I have a version that takes out all the like interstitials, that's my hair washing, for whatever reason.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Erica: Okay. Damn.

Kenrya: You asked this shit.

Erica: I know. I know. I know.

Katrina Jackson: I also feel like there's a very basic version of me, that's like when I'm writing romance, there are just a couple songs where I'm like, "I want to hear just this on the loop though. Nothing else."

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so... This is so hard. So hard. Okay. And then also some of these songs are just because I love the performances. Okay, so I am going to say... Damn. I was listening to “Irreplaceable” in the car the other day, singing my fucking heart out. I was like, "Damn, that's a good song." So I would put “Irreplaceable” on it. Oh, “Don't Hurt Yourself” because that was my divorce anthem. And... this is hard, “Love On Top.” Kenrya?

Kenrya: All right. Listen here. So I think the first one is my first favorite that I've been ever had of her, so it's got to go on the list, it's “Get Me Bodied.” I can listen to “Get Me Bodied” over and over, and I have all these great memories of like... So every time, we play the extended version in this house. And so we do all the things, me and my kid, we walk across the floor, we do it all. And so it's got a lot of great memories because I just fucking love that song. I can't really dance that much anymore. I can't actually dance to the song anymore because of the energy that it requires, but it just makes me happy.

Kenrya: “Party”? I think it just goes up. So the theme you'll see, I like her faster songs. I like the ballads, but the ballads are not the ones that I play all the time. What are you about to say, E?

Erica: No, “Party” reminds me of a very specific homecoming at Bar 7, fucking packed to the gills, we're standing on the-

Kenrya: On the banquettes.

Erica: Yeah. Standing, drunk as shit, singing “Party.” And if I'm not mistaken, we were drinking out of a bottle, passing that bitch around.

Kenrya: That was a pre-COVID thing that we did.

Erica: And Bar 7 is literally like this big, and them motherfuckers would pack [crosstalk 00:50:07].

Kenrya: Like, try to go to the bathroom, literally my feet are off the ground because I can't, there's so many people. God, I used to hate having to go pee in that place. And... Oh wait, I had another one and I have now forgotten what it was. I'll come back with my third one because I lost it from my brain.

Erica: Okay, Katrina, your turn.

Katrina Jackson: Okay. I'll balance you out because I prefer her ballads. So again, “Love On Top,” the “Homecoming” version, even though sometimes I do play the studio version because I just want to hear that part at the end, where she is just like... And then it's also staged a bit like too... I prefer the live version.

Kenrya: You've got to get the modulation because it's just goosebumps. Yep.

Erica: I know exactly what I'm thinking.

Katrina Jackson: And then I am a sucker for “Blue.” It's just the sweetest song ever. And [inaudible 00:51:14] I'm absolutely part of the Ivy League, we do what we can. And then... Oh, shit. What was my third? Oh, actually this is not really a ballad, but “Me, Myself and I” will... I think I was going through a breakup, so it has like a very [crosstalk 00:51:33].

Erica: Bitch got herself the best breakup song. Ooh, that's a good breakup song. That shit will have you changing your oil by yourself like, "Fuck it."

Kenrya: Wait. Oh, that actually reminds me of my third one. It's “Grown Woman.”

Katrina Jackson: Yes. Oh, I almost chose that.

Kenrya: Yeah. “Grown Woman.” Which you can only... you have to watch the video to hear the song, which is fine because I adore-

Katrina Jackson: I have a rip of that from some video from somewhere, I don't play.

Kenrya: I just put the fucking video on, on my phone. I don't care.

Erica: I was also going to say “End of Time,” just because I love the performance, the one that she did, I want to say it was like at some like London stadium. Remember she was like, "Beyonce is going to be at the Oscars." And she's like-

Kenrya: Cuts her. Yeah.

Erica: Zoomed in. She did a Zoom performance that... So anyway. Okay. Last top three. Top three foods.

Katrina Jackson: Damn. Sushi, burritos, gumbo. I'm just real hungry.

Erica: [crosstalk 00:52:43] We could eat [crosstalk 00:52:44], it's okay.

Kenrya: You're right. Those are all delicious things. Well, I can't eat gumbo, but those are delicious things.

Katrina Jackson: Why can't you eat gumbo?

Erica: You can eat gumbo.

Kenrya: It always has meat in it.

Erica: But you could do it. You can do it without, with just the seafood.

Kenrya: Yeah. But whoever does that?

Katrina Jackson: No, I know lots of people who do that.

Kenrya: Oh I don't. I need those people cooking for me.

Erica: Shit, I can do it.

Katrina Jackson: Yeah, it doesn't have to apparently. So my mother's family is from Louisiana, a part of them are, but I'm from California. But apparently in Louisiana, you're not supposed to be mix the meat and seafood, which I did not realize. So apparently if you go to Louisiana, you can get just the seafood gumbo.

Erica: I have bastardized gumbo.

Katrina Jackson: Haven't we all.

Erica: And it's good gumbo, but I would never put it against like real...

Kenrya: Yeah. I always end up having to get like a seafood etoufee because meat. Everything's always got that fucking andouille sausage in it which...

Katrina Jackson: Yeah. But apparently it's not traditional. So if you go to Louisiana, you should be okay. But yeah, we bastardize it, we're like what is in the fridge? What did we get from the butcher?

Erica: I literally put chicken wings in my gumbo.

Katrina Jackson: Yes. Same. I grew up with the little drumettes.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah, them little joints at the [crosstalk 00:53:59].

Katrina Jackson: Yeah, the little drumettes, a big ass thing with crab legs, shrimp, hot links, all the shit in there. That is not traditional.

Erica: Damn, I'm going to make some gumbo this week. I'm going to make some gumbo this week, my son going out because he can't-

Kenrya: He don't have seafood.

Erica: He can't have seafood or some fucked up [inaudible 00:54:16].

Kenrya: Yay.

Erica: Okay.

Kenrya: And what are you reading right now?

Katrina Jackson: Stuff I don't even want to talk about because it's trash, but [inaudible 00:54:29].

Kenrya: That's okay.

Katrina Jackson: I'm on a science fiction kick right now. And I'm reading a whole bunch of not classic science fiction, it's all a mess. I'm mostly reading it and being unhappy because my brain likes to pull things apart and I'm just like, "What's happening here? Why is this happening? Why did he write it this way?" So I'm reading the Dune series because I like that movie. I love some Zendaya, so I'll watch damn near anything she's in. And then, here we are. And then I'm reading the “Wheel of Time” series, which is an honest to God mess. But I-

Kenrya: And they're just... Are you reading it because did you just watch it?

Katrina Jackson: Yeah. And I just want to know. But I did just finish “Barracoon” by Zora Hurston, which I'm reading for a class.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.

Erica: Okay. What's turning you on today?

Katrina Jackson: Sleep. Nothing. Nothing. I'm dealing with seasonal depression, and-

Erica: We're just making it.

Katrina Jackson: We're just making it. Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Katrina Jackson: That's all right.

Kenrya: That's the thing. What's up next for you? What are you working on?

Katrina Jackson: Like eight things at once because even though I just told you all I'm working on my time, I'm putting up boundaries, that still means I'm working on like 3,000 things. So I'm working on three projects right now at various stages. I'm finishing the last novel in my Mafia series, which is going to be the last white dude y'all see from me for a hot second. I'm working on the second book of my “Love At Last” series called “One More Valentine” about a divorced couple getting back together. And I literally, just this morning, started my next Patreon serial which is going to be an erotic romance set during the Harlem Renaissance, another polyamorous, but this one's MMF, so we'll see.

Kenrya: Okay. Sounds interesting. Y'all need to get on this motherfucking Patreon. Y'all heard that. By the time you hear this episode, it'll be up. You need to go on and get with that, so [crosstalk 00:56:49].

Katrina Jackson: Don't over promise because I am trash.

Erica: You are an amazing writer and sometimes perfection takes a little bit longer.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you. But I'll send you that one and we can maybe talk about my very big message to the historical romance community, which is our ancestors will fucking stop writing these sweet historical romances only. Thank you. I'll hop off my footbox now.

Erica: Yeah, we featured it.

Kenrya: They made us.

Katrina Jackson: Hello.

Erica: We featured a historical romance and-

Katrina Jackson: I know you did, and I'm excited.

Erica: ... it was hot as fuck.

Katrina Jackson: It's just so much space for like, especially in those moments where they were in smokey clubs, listening to jazz and shit, all that like alcohol had no regulation.

Erica: I said, I was like, "It took me adulthood." As a kid, you learn about the Harlem Renaissance, and then you grow up. It was like, "These niggas was fucking. There's no way-"

Kenrya: [crosstalk 00:57:49] They was drunk, they was high, they was fucking.

Erica: And it wasn't happening. You had all these good unmitigated drugs and whatever you call it. All this moonshine that could turn you blind, it of course had to have your pussy sparkling, so yeah.

Katrina Jackson: Your pussy sparkling. So same thing about like the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Power era, I mean absolutely trash, a whole bunch of terrible people there.

Erica: Misogyny...

Katrina Jackson: A mess. But also-

Erica: I would've been throwing that ass.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you. Thank you. They were out here planning for the revolution while butt naked in bed with an Afro. It was just... it's my favorite thing about history.

Kenrya: Yeah. I would read that.

Katrina Jackson: Hello. I really need someone to write it. Because as a historian, a lot of historical romance authors are very much dedicated to writing Black people back into history, Godspeed. We understand it, respectability politics, no judgment. But also I didn't read a whole bunch of these people with memoirs and it was some shit happening and it was not all straight-

Erica: It was fucking bucket.

Katrina Jackson: That's the other thing. It was not all straight, so we need to let that go. History is fascinating and horny, and I feel like we are skimping on the last part.

Erica: History is fascinating and horny.

Kenrya: History is fascinating and horny. Yeah.

Katrina Jackson: My dog's going to be like, "What the hell is wrong with you?"

Erica: I was about to say, "Just know that's going to be a slide on the social media for this episode." FYI. Yeah.

Kenrya: It can't be undone.

Katrina Jackson: It's true though. I only take that thing when I'm wrong or lying, and I'm not either those things.

Kenrya: I like it. So folks can find you on KatrinaJacksonAuthor.com. And where else can they find you?

Katrina Jackson: I guess you can find me on Twitter being trifling every now and then, not as much anymore, @katrinaJax with an X.

Katrina Jackson: I'm on Instagram a little bit @KatJacksonBooks, I don't even know that handle, so don't quote me on that.

Kenrya: That's it. I'm looking at [crosstalk 01:00:06].

Katrina Jackson: I keep thinking about regularizing but I'm just... I don't care. And then I'm also on Patreon, I'm trying to be on Patreon a little bit more. My top tier, we get together once a month and just talk. I don't even know what we talk about.

Erica: Jesus, you've got some good hair. I clicked on your Instagram just to make sure that that was it, and there's this picture of you and your hair is just like...

Katrina Jackson: Yeah.

Erica: Just beautiful.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you. I do love my hair. I'll be out here. I'll be letting a whole bunch of things ago, I don't be calling people back on time, but I do love my hair.

Erica: Your hair is fucking like... Do not get mad if I see you and I'm like... You're like, "Bitch, are you trying to nuzzle my hair?"

Katrina Jackson: Do it, because look-

Erica: "My bad."

Katrina Jackson: Look. I'm the person who I'm like, "I know we shouldn't be just out here touching Black women's hair." This is why I'm going to ask you, "Can I touch your hair?" I want to touch everybody's hair. Or if you have like-

Erica: Your shit look [inaudible 01:01:07].

Katrina Jackson: I love hair. I'm definitely that kind of Black girl who's just like, I want to talk to anybody about whatever their hair looks like. If you got good braids, I'm like, "Who did your braids? What's going on? Let's go." I love hair.

Kenrya: That's how I feel about this sweater that you're wearing. I love this like sheer situation. I'm fascinated. I love it. Love it. Love it.

Katrina Jackson: I'm coming back here again, y'all got compliments.

Kenrya: That's cause we just... we love.

Erica: Yeah, we love your work. You're just... And this conversation made me love your writing that much more, so thank you.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you.

Kenrya: And you.

Katrina Jackson: You're like, "Also your ass."

Erica: [crosstalk 01:01:52]. That'd be real fucked up.

Kenrya: Our value is not in our work, it is in our being.

Erica: Yes. No, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Sorry, I do not mean to make it [crosstalk 01:01:59].

Katrina Jackson: But I do consider parts of my work like parts of me. Yeah. I mean it's like, whatever, I write a whole bunch of academics who need to learn how to take a fucking nap and drink some water and let people love them because I have had that problem, people I love have had that problem. I mean, I'm not all of these people. Lord, I wish I was. But parts of them are parts of me, so I didn't take any offense at all.

Erica: Thank you.

Kenrya: Well, on that note, that is it for this week's episode of The Turn On. Thank you for coming on.

Katrina Jackson: Thank you for having me. Thank you for letting me harass you into having me. I have no judgment. I woke up one day and I was like, "I'm about to get on The Turn On pod," my Twitter will be like...

Erica: I was like, "This was the best DM slide I've had."

Kenrya: Yeah. Like, "The fuck?" We're easy. We're real easy.

Erica: Yeah, we're easy.

Katrina Jackson: My favorite people usually are.

Erica: Yes, so...

Kenrya: No, thank you for saying something. Closed mouths don't get fed-

Katrina Jackson: Also true.

Kenrya: ... not on this fucking boulevard, so.

Katrina Jackson: Also true.

Kenrya: Yeah, all day. So thank you and thank you to everyone for listening and we'll see y'all next week. Take care.

[theme music]

Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.

Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.

Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.

Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.

Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.

Season 5 | Episode 8 | Come Over

4/27/2022

Book, "Looking" by Katrina Jackson | Patreon
Author, Katrina Jackson | Website | Twitter | Instagram
What's Turning Us On | Kama Sutra | Bookshop | Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
Kenrya: Come here. Get off.

[theme music]

Erica: So... Hey, y'all. Welcome to this week's episode of The Turn On. This is your host, Erica. Your hoe host...

Kenrya: Kenrya. Hey y'all.

Erica: Killa. And today we are reading... Okay, so today we're reading this book. It's called “Looking” and it is by Katrina Jackson, who is just... Just when I finished this book, I was like, "This is a Katrina Jackson stan account." So, she slid in our DMs one day, because we did her book Look... Not, shit, “Looking.” We did her book “Welcome to Seaport”-

Kenrya: Yes, and that was awesome.

Erica: ... a while back. Which was awesome and filthy. And she was like, “I would love to hear Kenrya read…” And we was like, "Say less fam."

Kenrya: Literally.

Erica: And I'm glad we did, because we are about to get into an amazing book. So sit back, relax, get your wine, your weed, and whatever you need. And enjoy.

Kenrya: “Looking” by Katrina Jackson. The hero of the film betrays someone or something. I don't know. Everyone looks the same and I don't really hear what's happening. I'm just about to tell them that when Darren lifts the armrest between us and leans into my side. He doesn't need to say anything. I know what his soft breath on my jaw means. His hand nudging my outer thigh, his smile against my earlobe. I scoot closer, turning toward Jordan. The screen casts her profile in shadow, and maybe it's my growing infatuation with her or the fact that we're here at her request or because my pussy is already clenching knowing what's coming, but I think her beauty is unmatched in that moment.

Kenrya: Darren drapes his body casually around my back. He sometimes holds me like this in bed. Falling asleep like this is a top tier perk of spending more than a decade with someone who loves all kinds of physical intimacy, but I'm anything but tired. The frustrated desire this movie had almost killed stretches its limbs.

Kenrya: It might be my imagination because this movie is loud as fuck, but I swear I can hear Darren's belt buckle and zipper come undone. The back of his hand brushing against my ass as he fishes his dick from his boxers isn't imaginary. I pull my dress up in the back, ready for him. So fucking ready for him. I lift my left leg and whimper when the spongy head of his dick brushes my pussy from the back. He slides between my thighs, grunts into my ear because I'm wet. Bad movie and all, I'm still wet. Darren rubs the length of his shaft between my lips, lubricating himself and bumping up against my clit until I'm wetter than before and we're both breathing heavily. Something explodes on screen just as he pushes inside of me and I cry out gratefully.

Kenrya: I open my eyes quickly and look down at the theater, trying to see if anyone heard me or turned our way, but so far as I can tell, we're still in the clear. But then I look at Jordan and see her watching us. She's holding her bag of popcorn in her lap and pops a few kernels into her mouth and chews, the curve of a smile on her face. Darren starts to move inside of me. I love this angle on the best of days, but this experience makes an old favorite feel brand new. It's the sound of the movie, knowing that we can't get too wild or loud or else we'll draw someone's unwanted attention, or that we're one trip to the bathroom or turned head away from being discovered. All of it drives me to a shuddering orgasm with only a few deep strokes.

Kenrya: I reach back to cup Darren's head and he stills inside of me while I pulse around him with my eyes shut. "Okay?" he whispers. "I just need a second," I breathe. We both feel Jordan move. When I open my eye, she's lifted the armrest between us and she's scooting closer. I hold my breath, but Darren is panting against my ear. He leans toward me and presses a gentle kiss against my lip. It's lovely and full of emotion, at least on my end. Thank God her mouth is there to muffle my scream when I feel her fingers against my clit and all hell breaks mildly loose.

Kenrya: We're just careful enough after that not to draw attention, but to be honest I don't think any of us gives a shit about getting caught since we don't stop fucking and touching and kissing and licking one another. Darren's fucking me faster, harder. Jordan's fingers are slippery from my first release. Sometimes she replaces her fingers on my lips with the heel of her palm on my clit. When she does that, Darren lets out a wheezy grunt as her fingers brush the base of his shaft.

Kenrya: I feel Darren's free hand snake around my body. I don't know what he's up to until Jordan laughs against my lips and breaks our kiss. He replaces her mouth with her bare breast that Darren has pulled free. There's no careful preparation, no time to consider what I think about this first time I felt another woman's nipple against my lips as an adult. There's no time for me to overthink this moment. There's only time to explore the rich contours of her nipple with my tongue, to feel her areola against my lip, and to experience the way she shudders when I suck the hard nub into my mouth for definitely not the last time. Jordan sighs and then Darren grunts. I can hear them kissing, but can't quite find the right angle in the dark theater to see it.

Kenrya: If I have any complaints, that's the only one. I want to see and feel and hear everything but I can't. "Next time," I promise myself. And then I clench around Darren's shaft, coming again, using Jordan's breasts to muffle the sound of my scream. Darren groans against her lips and I feel her wet hand grip the base of his shaft as he releases deep inside me. When he's finished, Jordan's hand smooths over my pussy. I jump and tighten around Darren as she grazes my clit. He groans tiredly, a little louder than necessary. We all turn toward the theater to check that we haven't been spotted. When I look back at Jordan, she's slipping her wet fingers into her mouth. "God," I groan. "Told you," Darren whispers, easing his dick out of me. We get ourselves together, kind of. I wish I brought a pair of underwear for the aftermath.

Kenrya: It's a very strange feeling to worry if my husband's cum will seep out of me and run down my leg as soon as I stand up. "Well, that was fun," Jordan says. "This movie is bad, so I'm going to dip. I'll call you two tomorrow?" I nod slowly. "Text us when you get home," Darren says. Thank the Lord for his ability to be ever responsible. Jordan leans over and kisses him briefly on the lips. Of course. And then she kisses me. "Was it good?" I laugh. "Amazing." And she kisses me again. And then she's bouncing up from her seat. The bag of popcorn, a drink I'd honestly forgotten she had in one hand and her purse and the other, throwing it over her shoulder. We watch her with heaving chests. "She stole your Red Vines," Darren says when she's gone. "She earned them," I say. We both laugh. "Shh," someone calls across the theater. We laugh harder.

Erica: Okay y'all, we're back. So, this book was... I read it... Oh, let's get... I'm about to jump in. Okay, let's give the synopsis.

Kenrya: Oh, right.

Erica: So there's this couple, Darren and Nadia. They are just the cutest fucking couple. They were married. One of their good married friends hit them with the, "Hey, y'all, we divorcing." And it caused them to reexamine their marriage and they decided, "Look, we're good, but we should go to therapy." They go to therapy and in therapy they realize, "We're bored. Let's spice things up a bit. Let's get a girlfriend." So this story is about them-

Kenrya: Looking.

Erica: ... and their process of finding. What'd you say?

Kenrya: Looking for a girlfriend.

Erica: Yeah, looking for a girlfriend.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Bitch.

Kenrya: It's so good.

Erica: It was well written. So it took Kenrya, what? Two days to read this book?

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I don't even think it was a full two days. I started before bed and finished the next afternoon or something stupid.

Erica: It took me a little longer primarily because I was the master debater of this book.

Kenrya: Yeah, if I'd had energy.

Erica: It was every fucking scene. I was like, "Well, about to go blind again."

Kenrya: Time to go. Yep.

Erica: Palm's about to get hairy. Because it was... I was rubbing one out every fucking scene. Katrina, you are-

Kenrya: A fucking master.

Erica: Fucking disgusting and delightful.

Kenrya: Sometimes-

Erica: All in the same one.

Kenrya: Yo, sometimes we have books and it's hard to find a good scene. The book is great, right, but there's not a ton of sex in it. But with this one it was like, "Which one do we choose? There are so many."

Erica: Girl. And she writes... She not only writes the sex well, but she writes the anticipation and the hormones coursing through your body and just... Woo, girl. Even she wrote a fucking hand job great.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: I was just-

Kenrya: I don't even like those.

Erica: I don't either, but I was like, "Goddamn, this bitch is just... This bitch." Oh, okay. So a little bit more about the story. So Katrina has a Patreon, so right now this book is only available to her Patreon subscribers. We'll make sure we include that in there. At some point she will be releasing this to the general public, but y'all...

Kenrya: Support a Black writer.

Erica: Support a Black writer, and support your regions. Because I tell you... Goddamn, goddamn, goddamn.

Kenrya: Your nethers.

Erica: I can't get past how fucking good the scenes were. And also, she did a great... So this is one of those books where it's written from everybody's perspective. She did a really good job of getting in everyone's head without making it seem like this, "Oh, crazy, fraught" kind of thing. But just...

Kenrya: Erica's mind is like the mind blown emoji.

Erica: That final scene.

Kenrya: Oh, yeah.

Erica: Oh my gosh. It was just...

Kenrya: And I was like, "I wasn't expecting that." I was like, "Oh, we get another."

Erica: Yeah, it was great. It was delightful. So yeah, it was...

Kenrya: Great.

Erica: Okay, so like we said, this was a couple. They had been together since they were in college. And one of the things I think that we forget is that you grow. You're never going to be the same person-

Kenrya: Hopefully.

Erica: ... in a relationship. And it is important for you to remember that, "Yo, we're changing and we need to learn how to love and operate and have a life and parent and all this with this changed person." So I think it was really dope that they were like, "Oh, shit. We need therapy to just make sure we're still on the same page." And they went to therapy while they were healthy.

Kenrya: I would say it was a very healthy decision that they made, right? And they didn't wait until shit had devolved like I think a lot of times-

Erica: Most people do.

Kenrya: Yeah. Things have gotten to the point where it feels like that is the only effort, only thing that you have, the only option that you have. And they were like, "We should do this preemptively."

Erica: And I thought that was so great. And there was a lot of thought in the book from primarily Nadia, but I think Darren did it a little bit too, about, "I'm not the same person I was when I was younger, and I am dealing with that part of me." Dealing with the grown and changed person. And also recognizing that what's good at some point in your relationship, ain't always going to be good. Them finding a girlfriend, ain't always going to be good, but... I mean, wouldn't have always been a good place-

Kenrya: For them.

Erica: ... a good thing for their relationship. But it was a step that was natural at that point.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Which really goes to that point that your relationship is what you make it, right?

Erica: Yes, this book-

Kenrya: You got to build the thing that works for you.

Erica: This book was a love letter to that idea, that it's what you make it. I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit, but I thought that it was very... They were committed to having a girlfriend. "We going to have a girlfriend, we going to incorporate her in our life. Our lives" Lives...

Kenrya: Lives is... Yes.

Erica: Lives.

Erica: "We're going to incorporate her in our lives." And I just thought, "Wow, y'all are really adults." Because I will say it takes a certain someone to be like... A certain fortitude to be like, "No, this is what the fuck works for me and my family, so we going to make it work." Because even as they were dating, they started having dreams of like, "Oh, all three of us. And us and the boys," and all of that. And I was like, "Whoa, this is like..."

Kenrya: Right. So one thing we haven't mentioned is that they had two children.

Erica: Yes.

Kenrya: And yeah, there was a lot of... I like that that was a part of the consideration was like, "We have kids and how do we introduce this change in our lives to our children?" And I don't want to give too much away, but that was a part of the story. But yeah, they were very committed and they went through a process together. I think the book opens with them swiping, looking for somebody.

Erica: Even just that fucking scene just drew me in. We going to have Katrina on this show and I'm going to... She's lucky we not in person, because I'm going to smack her. I would've smacked her and been like, "Bitch, why are you writing like this?"

Kenrya: Yeah, it's fucking dope.

Erica: And I think she'd appreciate it. So... Oh, were you going to say-

Kenrya: I was just going to say that Nadia was really, to me, the driving force of making this actually happen. Because Darren kept having these guilty moments. "I feel I'm cheating on my wife," and she was like, "Nigga, I'm on the phone."

Erica: Well, and the thing is also, I think Darren... If they didn't take this step, Darren would've been a nigga unhappy, not-

Kenrya: You think so?

Erica: Not unhappy, but he would have locked himself in. "This is what our relationship is. I love my wife. I'm not going to..." He would've been in happiness level 1B, where now he at happiness level 1A because he actually followed his wife's ideas. So, you get what I'm saying?

Kenrya: Yeah, yeah. She unlocked what they needed and he would've never brought it up because that's a lot.

Erica: That's his wife and his family and respect and da da da da.

Kenrya: Exactly. And he was really stuck in that.

Erica: Okay, so first, I apologize. I'm letting my hair grow out, and so I definitely feel like Moesha's daddy.

Kenrya: Frank!

Erica: Yeah, I feel like Frank Mitchell.

Kenrya: You do not look like Frank.

Erica: Because I got the Black man box.

Kenrya: No you don't.

Erica: This isn't.. This is a-

Kenrya: It's actually cute.

Erica: This is the "I'm old and I still have my hairline box" that old Black man do when they got their hairline. And like, "I'm going to stunt on these niggas." They do this.

Kenrya: What's the plan? You growing it out or what?

Erica: So, I don't know. I definitely want this grown out. This is going to come down. And I want the...

Kenrya: Oh, okay.

Erica: And I think I want a color, but I'm not sure because...

Kenrya: Your hair hadn't been holding color for a while, right?

Erica: It hadn't been holding color, but I don't think I was... I wasn't using... I was just washing my hair with Suave.

Kenrya: So you need to be taking better care of your hair. Just saying. Okay.

Erica: Okay, so them and the whole "fuck what y'all think, I'm going to do what I want" thing. It brought up something that I'm dealing with right now.

Kenrya: Oh, what?

Erica: So, I'm on the apps. I'm trying to date. So I changed my profile. First it was like, "Accepting men only." Right? So now I opened it up to nonbinary folk, right? I don't think I could be with a female presenting person, a feminine presenting person. Female presenting, feminine presenting. You get what I'm saying, right?

Erica: And I'm trying not to be... Not outrageous. Not trying to be offensive. Other O word. Not trying to be offensive, as I describe it. Yeah, I don't... I just... And the fact that I'm dealing with this has me wondering, "Am I dealing with this because I care about folks? I care about being with a male presenting person, or is it just that I just don't get my rocks from a female presenting person?"

Kenrya: Boo.

Erica: When I do kind of, because I have sex with them.

Kenrya: I'm about to say you eat pussy, so...

Erica: I mean, you ain't have to put it like that.

Kenrya: Sorry.

Erica: But I do. No, I'm fucking with you. But I don't know if I-

Kenrya: No, I'm just trying to... Yeah, talk to me about it.

Erica: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And the fact that I was hesitant, makes me... Bothers me. So I don't know. Also, this person wasn't the hottest, so maybe if they were hotter, I'd be... But just the fact that I was just like, "Hmm, didn't think about this. I don't know if I can do this," has me wondering, "What the fuck is going on with me? What am I doing?"

Kenrya: Well, I mean, I don't know. We want to be with the people who we're attracted to, right? Maybe this is a therapy conversation to get at if it's... Is it just that person you're not attracted to? Is it female presenting folks who you're not attracted to?

Erica: That's what I'm...

Kenrya: Or is it... I don't know. I mean, we've talked before about your-

Erica: And they had long hair.

Kenrya: What is... So you just don't like people with long hair? No niggas with cornrows? No? No?

Erica: I swiped on a nigga with locs and it was like, "Okay, Erica."

Kenrya: Yeah, locs be upgrading niggas though. Because sometimes you'll see somebody without their locs and be like, "Holy [crosstalk 00:21:57]." Yeah, it's like a beard.

Erica: A fucking beard.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Beards. If I see a guy and he has one picture with no beard or short beard, I'm like, "Nope, because there's a possibility that you may go back there."

Kenrya: That you going to take that shit off.

Erica: And I'm going to be up-fucking-set. I'm going to be like, "Bruh."

Kenrya: I remember way back, it was some dude who I-

Erica: I'll be like, "Put this on your face so we can have sex."

Kenrya: I think-

Erica: Just keep little... Keep little merkins.

Kenrya: I think we talked about this, because it was also on “Schitt's Creek” where this chick was dating a dude and he had a beard and then he cut it off and she was like, "What the fuck? Who are you?"

Erica: Yeah, you told me. Yeah, give them a little merkins. Are merkins just for pussies and stuff?

Kenrya: I mean, yeah. Usually it's-

Erica: I mean for-

Kenrya: Yeah, to cover your vulva. It's a little vulva wig. But you know what, my partner did tell me that they have fake beards.

Erica: Fuck yeah, they're like lace fronts.

Kenrya: Oh my God. I don't understand. See? And this is... Okay, so you fucking with a dude who got a weak ass chin or a person with a weak chin who has a beard. And then when you have a baby with them, and then your baby don't have no chin.

Erica: Then you got a little weak chin baby.

Kenrya: It's like fucking with a Kardashian.

Erica: Or-

Kenrya: What is your kid going to look like?

Erica: Or they don't have no lips, and then you can't tell because they have on a beard. Because they wearing a beard.

Kenrya: No. I mean, you would feel that when you kiss them, but ugh.

Erica: It's just like a little slit [inaudible 00:23:34].

Kenrya: Ugh.

Erica: So you know what? So my therapist, our new therapist.

Kenrya: Our new therapist, yes.

Erica: Our new therapist. One, she's making me come weekly.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Me too.

Erica: So we can get to know each other. I'm like, "Girl, every week?" But it's been good. It's been fine, because... You guys missed it. Poops passed away.

Kenrya: Oh, yeah.

Erica: Our studio dog. He passed away over the holiday right before Christmas.

Kenrya: He did.

Erica: Had to put him down. It was a very sad situation. But a bitch is strong. And Brother's thinking about getting a dog, a little tiny dog. Yeah, so there'll be a little... And it's going to be his dog, but I've definitely been like, "Look at this. Don't you want to go see this one today? What about this?"

Kenrya: You know my child is going to be trying to commandeer a little dog. Lord.

Erica: And that is fine. That is fine. Oh, so seeing the new therapist and one of the things she told me to do, because I'm dealing with my raisin titty. And so she's like, "Find a body part that you love and stare at it in the mirror." And so it's been my lips because not everyone is blessed to have them.

Kenrya: It's true, it's true. Shit, I grew up my whole life being envious. So there's a... I call them the Rankin Lips. It's a very specific lip that my whole family has and I don't have them. And I like my lips, they're fine. But them Rankin Lips, they just... They're beautiful. They're just big and juicy and I don't have them. I covet.

Erica: So we have the Easter Eyebrows. Everybody got the thick ass-

Kenrya: Y'all sure do.

Erica: Everybody got thick ass eyebrows. We had a family... I guess a Zoom, but it's on Facebook or some shit. We did a family group chat Christmas Eve, and it was just like... In every fucking frame. And for the women it was just really defined.

Kenrya: Right.

Erica: And thick. In the nineties, my was shit was so not in fashion, but now a bitch is doing it right.

Kenrya: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's what everybody be trying to get to.

Erica: Bitch is doing right.

Erica: Okay, so went to therapy when they're healthy, recognized that they have grown and wanted to try something new. They were such a cute couple. And not in an annoying, cheesy way. But just in a, "We love and support..." We need more books like that, like this.

Kenrya: With what? Very loving married couples?

Erica: More characters like this. Loving, married couples that aren't huge sweeping declarations. You could just tell that they loved each other in the simplicity and the thoughtfulness. Even the scene where he called her, he told her.... He told... Darren told Nadia.

Erica: Sorry, I keep forgetting the names, so I'm looking at... Darren told Nadia, "Stay home from work today." And then he ordered her favorite breakfast. So simple, but such a loving act. It's just... Ugh. They were so disgustingly cute in the most healthy, "Ooh, I want some of that," kind of way.

Kenrya: Hmm, yeah.

Erica: Hashtag couple goals. Except we don't like saying...

Kenrya: I'm about to say, I don't like that. But of course I'm sitting over here reminiscing about nice things.

Erica: Aww.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: That's so sweet.

Kenrya: My partner has been trying to buy his leased car for weeks, and they've been giving him the runaround. It's like he trying to give them money and they just making things difficult. And one day he went to two dealerships and the bank, literally hours spent doing this, didn't get to eat.

Erica: Oh, no.

Kenrya: First he had to go see a client who was 45 minutes late. Then he had to go do all of that, and he hadn't eaten after he finished all of that. So by the time he got home, I had ordered him lunch so that when he got home, he would actually have something to eat as soon as he got there. His favorite meal to his door, because these are the things we do when we care about.

Erica: That's so sweet. Well, I'm looking. Please, Lord. I've seen what you've done for others. Please do that for me. Amen.

Kenrya: Amen.

Erica: Ashe. Abadullah.

Kenrya: Okay.

Erica: Oblongata.

Kenrya: I hate you.

Erica: Okay. So at one point in the story... Okay, I'm jumping ahead. Okay, so at one point in the story, Jordan lashes out at Darren. Won't give too many details, but she lashes out at Darren, and there were so many layers to it. But so many... When she later explained, he was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense."

Kenrya: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erica: I've seen it, I've done it. It made so much sense. And it was pretty much coming from a place of he was genuinely trying to be helpful, but it was her feelings of inadequacy and embarrassment that caused her to lash out at him. And it just made me think like, "Oof, I've totally been in that situation."

Erica: I remember I was dating this guy, and this was... I think this was when I was making $2,700 a month. I mean, $27,000. Put another zero over that, Erica.

Kenrya: A year.

Erica: $27,000 a year, getting paid once a month. That's what it was.

Kenrya: Oh, I know where you were working

Erica: Child. I was struggling and surviving. Jesus on a good line. Good times.

Kenrya: Yep.

Erica: So that was where I was. And I remember I was dating this guy, and he would always come pick me up. And this particular day he was like, "I'm super busy, can't pick you up. Just come to my house and I'll reimburse you for the cab." Because he lived in one that was high rises. So it wasn't like... And this was...

Kenrya: Before Uber.

Erica: I wasn't in the covered wagon, but it was definitely before Uber. So I needed to pay this motherfucker when I got in. So I felt so inadequate, because I was like, "You don't even recognize that I ain't even got it to get to your place, to pay this man to get the money back from you when I get upstairs." So yeah. So, he was like, "Just come over. I'll pay back, da da da." And I lashed out, picked a fight, da da da.

Erica: So then he does this thing. He comes to pick me up. No, he was like, "I'm coming over there, because I don't know what the... This shit came out of nowhere. I'm coming there. What the fuck happened?" So he comes over. I'm still like, "I'm a bitch, you're an asshole." And so we get to the bottom of it, and he was like, "What?" And he writes me a $500 check on the spot, because he's just like, "Bitch, how about you not..."

Kenrya: You need to have some money in your pocket. Yeah.

Erica: Yeah, exactly. And I was just like, "Thanks."

Kenrya: Choked your damn self.

Erica: But it definitely reminded me of that situation. And it's tough, especially when you're used to handling it and...

Kenrya: Yeah, projecting is a thing that we sometimes do when we don't mean to. Even with small stuff. I'm struggling to think of a time I've done that in a romantic relationship, although I'm certain that I have. But I did it a couple of days ago with a friend. She's going through some stuff and I reached out and was like, "What can I do for you today?" And she didn't answer. And then when I texted her, we were texting later, and I asked again and she didn't answer. I texted her back and I said, "Yo."

Erica: “Look, bitch.”

Kenrya: Right. I was like, "Listen, I noticed that you ignored me both times when I asked how I could help. But I'm really serious about helping. What can I do?" And she was like, "I'm sorry. The first time I didn't see it. The second time I was trying to hurry up and finish washing dishes. I wasn't ignoring it." And I was like, "I'm sorry." And she's like, "Why?" I was like, "Because I'm projecting." I was like, "I have some friends who I have been trying to help, and they basically keep being like, 'You got enough of your own shit going on. You can't help me.'" And I was like, "And that actually really bothers me." I was like, "So I was projecting on you that you were doing the same thing that has been going on. And it's obviously bothering me, and I'm really sorry." And then I gave her some concrete suggestions on things I could do to help rather than expecting her to tell me what she could do. Which is also a thing that bothers me.

Erica: You are just such a fucking adult. I don't know how I ended up with you as a fucking best friend, because I just flop out and...

Kenrya: I'm just trying to be good to people. And, yeah. Also I get a lot of joy from helping the people who I care about. A lot. I'm realizing as I really pare down what I do in a day. So it means a lot to me when some of that thing that I do can be for somebody else. And so when folks are like, "Nah, you got too much." I'm like, "I wouldn't offer if I didn't mean it."

Erica: Give me something to do to keep my mind off of all of the much that I have to do.

Kenrya: Yeah, it just brings me a lot of joy. But anyway, all that to say I projected and came in hot when I did not need to.

Erica: Ooh, child.

Kenrya: I'm like, "You was ignoring me."

Erica: Yeah, I come in hot. I definitely come in hot. Shit, my ex-husband could probably give you a million motherfucking situations where I came. I recognized that I was not always... Shit, I recognize that I'm still not always... But yeah, I definitely have come in hot, per se, on some shit knowing good and well, as my granny would say, loud and wrong. Loud and wrong.

Kenrya: It's a thing that we all are sometimes. One thing that was interesting to me, now that you bring up the conflict though, is that in a lot of romances the conflict feels a bit... Not manufactured, but...

Erica: If y'all had a cell phone, this shit would be over in three seconds.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: Or... Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kenrya: But this felt like a genuine, deeply felt thing that she was dealing with. It felt earned, and it felt true to her character.

Erica: But also, because Katrina's such a good writer, she set us up for it. Not even realizing that we were... She set us up for it not even thinking that we were being set up. But then when you're like, "Oh, okay."

Kenrya: Oh, yeah.

Erica: So yeah, it was... Bitch is good.

Kenrya: Yeah. And then they resolved it like adults.

Erica: They resolve it like adults. And how do they resolve it? They run into each other. So-

Kenrya: Yeah, randomly.

Erica: What happened? So they lose touch and then they randomly run into to each other. Which you think about it, it's hard to lose people, but at the same time easy to lose people.

Erica: Just think about living here in the DC area. Your partner lived literally around the corner from you and you had never seen him ever in your entire life. I remember I ghosted a nigga that lived around the corner. I still ain't seen that nigga. Except one day I was walking down the street and heard a horn honk and I was like...

Kenrya: Could be him.

Erica: Could it be? But yeah. Yeah, so it's easy but difficult at the same time.

Kenrya: I'm about to say, but then you got African Santa coming up to me and grabbing my hand in the middle of Safeway after I disappeared on him, so...

Erica: Who was, again, every time I mention, I will mention that he was snowbese, meaning you weren't sure if it was a coat or his body.

Kenrya: That was a thing. But that was not the thing. The thing was that this nigga was talking about how I was going to give him beautiful Black babies the first time we talked on the phone.

Erica: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay, so I feel like men... I think I deleted the damn thread. I feel like men, they do this thing, especially in dating apps, where they talk... They try to be deep or they try to be doing too much and you be like, "Bruh."

Kenrya: “Shut up.”

Erica: “Shut the fuck up.” Okay, so I'm about to... So the nigga... So we matched.

Kenrya: Yes, share. Yes. Let me get my dragon fruit smoothie.

Erica: “Good morning, Erica, and Happy New Year. Looking through your profile, you seem eclectic and purposeful.”

Kenrya: Shut up, nigga.

Erica: “What part of your life are you most interested in growing in 2022? And is that part different than the most exciting part in your life?”

Kenrya: What did you just say?

Erica: I was like-

Kenrya: What? Huh?

Erica: So you know me, I'm trying, right? And I'm like, "You know what?" He didn't respond, because I realized I didn't have a full body pic, so I put a full body pic. And then when I put a full body pic, I kept getting like a [inaudible 00:39:17]. So I was like-

Kenrya: You know what? Right.

Erica: It wasn't that, so let's roll with it. So I'm not sure what we were... I responded like, "Oh, I have a lot going on, got a lot happening, hopeful about the new year." And so then I try to change it up, and I'm like, "So what's making you happy these days?" Because I just want to... No, I said, "What's bringing you joy these days?" Because I want to keep it light. I want to keep it light. He's like, "I'm always joyful. The joy has never left me."

Kenrya: Oh, God.

Erica: I said, "Okay, well what's making you happy?" "The fact that this conversation is going well is making me happy." Nigga. And you had locs, so why the fuck am I doing this?

Kenrya: The "the joy has never left me" is giving me "I'm blessed" vibes.

Erica: Yeah, “too blessed to be stressed.”

Kenrya: Exactly.

Erica: Amen. Okay, so I have this only because I screenshot this shit and send it to... I have a group of girlfriends that were always, "This one old nigga matched on me today. And do you know his fucking profile pic was a picture of him with Smokey Robinson?" He was like, "I'm going to flex on these hoes with Smokey. It was the worst." Okay.

Kenrya: Oh.

Erica: So, my response. So this is my response. This nigga is just like... Oh, I said, "What's making you happy?" He said, "I'm happy this banter is positive that we are crafting together."

Kenrya: Oh, no, I'm sorry.

Erica: So I said, "Look, so I'm not sure how to put this without a sounding shallow. So I guess it is, eye roll emoji. But typically when I initially match with someone, we get some sort of rapport before we jump in with the big questions. Right off the bat, it feels like an interview. You're probably a great guy, but this line of questioning feels like a lot before I'm sure there's even a spark."

Erica: Are you proud of me?

Kenrya: Yeah, that's very honest. What did he say back or did he unmatch after that?

Erica: So then he's like, "Well, you can control the conversation." Wait, what did he say? Hold on. Because this... I'm going to see if I can find it. I think I deleted it because... Yeah, I deleted it. Yeah, I deleted it. But it was something along the lines of like... He was like, "Well, you can lead the conversation. You can try." And I'm like, "Bruh, I tried when I asked you what the fuck's bringing you joy. You could have said, 'Hey, I want some new sneakers or...'"

Kenrya: “The sun is shining today.” Something, shit.

Erica: Something, motherfucker. Everything ain't got to be deep, goddamn. And the thing is, as you all can tell listeners, I talk. If we hit it off? Nigga, you going to hear all my hopes and dreams. You going to hear about the one time in seventh grade I scratched my knee at the fucking friendship dance because my pants, they were the jeans with the suede, but then the suede and then... Anyway. You going to get all of that, right? But goddamn. Off the bat? Fuck. Nigga. It just... Ugh.

Kenrya: Yeah, that's a lot.

Erica: It's a lot.

Kenrya: Well-

Erica: And it's like-

Kenrya: I don't know. For me, it's not... It just feels fake and forced.

Erica: Yeah. And if that's who you are, then great. But that's not who I need to be with. I need to coon with you just a little bit before we... I need some kikis before we start jumping into the “what are your fucking hopes and dreams?”

Kenrya: Because you want to know that it's somebody who you can ki with, right? Now's the time to be dazzling.

Kenrya: My partner's always like, "Listen. Yeah, okay. I look how I look." But he's like, "But I'm funny." He was like... I mean, he's fine. But he's like, he always feels like because he's not the tallest man... He taller than me. You know I really don't give a fuck. But he always felt like... He has the opposite... Well, it's not even the opposite of a little man complex. He just doesn't give a fuck. But he does recognize that people treat him differently because he's not six foot. He was like, "So I've just always been fucking funny." He was like, "I bring my A material. I know what my..." He's like, "I'm going to dazzle you, so..."

Erica: It ain't nothing wrong with that.

Kenrya: That works, yeah. Listen-

Erica: Partner, ain't nothing wrong with that.

Kenrya: He had me laughing from the very beginning. That shit works.

Erica: It's just like, "Bruh, you ain't got to do all that." And the entire time he's doing this, all I'm thinking is, "In front of my salad? In front of my fucking salad?" I don't know why that was in my brain, but it's like, "Nigga, you doing all this. Just chill. Tranquilo, tranquilo." That's what my brother say when I start coming in hot. He was like, "Tranquilo." Yeah.

Erica: Okay. Damn, how did we get here?

Kenrya: Oh, I don't know.

Erica: Okay, so anyway. Yeah. So... Oh, lost and found niggas. Ugh, okay.

Kenrya: Wait, lost and found niggas?

Erica: Yeah, yeah. African Santa?

Kenrya: Oh, God. Yeah, not being able to shake.

Erica: Yeah, not being able to shake niggas. Yeah. So anyway, but yeah. I just, with the dating thing, it's just like, "Dog, just be yourself." And you know what? Maybe he was being himself. And then-

Kenrya: Then that just means that his self was not for you.

Erica: Exactly. But then this starts me down this rabbit hole because the nigga had locs and I told you I don't like people with long hair. And so I'm like, "Well, fuck. This is what you get for compromising on your I don't want to date niggas with long hair." But then it's like, "Bitch, chill the fuck out."

Kenrya: He's one person.

Erica: It's not like we talking about-

Kenrya: He's not all the people.

Erica: Exactly. So it just, it wasn't a good look. Okay, another theme in this story was that both Darren and Nadia were really super involved parents and they did it so much so that they failed to care for themselves. But what I found really interesting was that the other person made sure that the other person was taking care of themself. Does that make sense?

Kenrya: I think so.

Erica: And it was beautiful. It's part of those sweet little things that the couple did for one another.

Erica: Okay, last thing. Part of what made these sex scenes fucking hot were how Katrina made it so that Jordan fueled Nadia's hunger for Darren. Or Jordan fueled Darren's hunger for Nadia. And that was so fucking sexy because they were like, "Look, I fucks with you hard. And I just saw her, and she made me hot, and I'm going to fuck with you even harder. And thinking about her and you and how you would enjoy her, then that makes me even hornier." It was just this whole... I'm thinking of those earth circles with the arrows of just hotness and sexiness.

Kenrya: Yeah, and she was very intentional about that. Getting him worked up and then sending him home to his wife. When they were still in their dating before they were all together or whatever.

Erica: But even when they were all together, because there was really only one scene where they were all together. Right?

Kenrya: Two, yeah.

Erica: Yeah, all right. Yeah.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: The dog. It was good. And so, and I think that that's something that's normal and healthy. And I think that couples should stop denying that part of themselves. I just think that... I don't want you fantasizing about your kid's school teacher while you're fucking me, because you could actually be fucking your kid's school teacher, right? But I don't think that there's anything wrong in recognizing that you're attracted to other people and maybe that ass makes me want to tear up that ass a little bit more. Because I feel like people deny that part of themselves and, "The only person I ever want to see and love and fuck is you."

Erica: Mm, you probably had a... I mean that shit don't turn off immediately. And I'm not making an argument that people can't be monogamous or faithful or anything like that, but I am making the argument that when you get in a relationship, fucking-

Kenrya: Your eyes don't close.

Erica: ... attractions.

Kenrya: You don't-

Erica: Exactly.

Kenrya: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erica: Yeah, and so I think if we're all honest about that, then maybe that'll throw a little spice in some shit. You might be excited about... I remember I was fucking this guy and he would always talk about having threesomes. Not always, but I knew I could make him come when I was like, "Yeah, imagine you fucking a chick." It's fantasy, y'all. It's okay. I mean, granted they incorporate a little bit more, but it's fantasy. It's a part of the situation. I don't think it's a bad thing.

Kenrya: No, I don't think it's a bad thing. It's interesting. I'm sitting here trying to think if I've ever fantasized... I don't know if I've ever fantasized about somebody else while I was with somebody.

Erica: I do. I do enough for the both of us then.

Kenrya: I don't think I have. Huh. I don't think I have. It doesn't mean, though, that I don't find other people attractive or anything like that. It's just not what I'm thinking about when I'm having sex with somebody. Huh.

Erica: And that's fine. But there's some people do and that's fine. As long as we ain't...

Kenrya: If you're not acting on it if that's not what your relationship is, then...

Erica: As long as we ain't monogamous. Yeah, as long as... Yeah.

Erica: So, yeah. That's all I got.

Kenrya: Word.

Erica: You got anything else?

Kenrya: Just... Yes, this book is behind a Patreon pay wall. Totally fucking worth it.

Erica: Totally worth it.

Kenrya: And y'all know how we feel about supporting Black women and nonbinary folk in their work. And so...

Erica: Do it.

Kenrya: I don't really know what to tell... It's...

Erica: It's good.

Kenrya: It is so good. And not just the sex scenes. Katrina's a wonderful writer.

Erica: Yes.

Kenrya: We read a lot of books to find books for the show.

Erica: Fucking on Bernie's bus. I will never get that shit out of my head.

Kenrya: What?

Erica: It is the equivalent of walking in on your parents having sex.

Kenrya: You talking about the first book for the pilot that we scrapped?

Erica: No, there was a book. I don't even... It was a book, and at some point in the story, these bitches was getting a train run on in Bernie Sanders' bus.

Kenrya: Oh, God. Yeah, that's bad. I mean-

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: Ugh, yeah. A lot of stuff don't make it.

Erica: A lot of stuff don't make it.

Kenrya: But this one was-

Erica: The ones that do? And this one is just-

Kenrya: From beginning to end.

Erica: She's great. I mean, we knew she was good with “Welcome to Seaport,” but this just...

Kenrya: It's interesting too, because I see-

Erica: Was this a short?

Kenrya: ... the growth. I don't think so. Maybe.

Erica: Yeah, I'm like, "I don't think so."

Kenrya: I remember she said she was supposed to be writing shorts, but she kept writing full-length projects.

Erica: Yeah. But yeah, it was fucking good.

Kenrya: Yeah, really and truly worth it.

Erica: So, please support our homegirl.

Kenrya: Yeah. She's dope and this book is dope. And yeah, she'll be on next week.

Erica: We'll see her next week.

Kenrya: Yeah, so get to [crosstalk 00:52:08].

Erica: All right, y'all. Well, we about to take a break and then we'll be back with-

Kenrya: What's turning us on.

Kenrya: Hey, y'all. Today's a great day to start your own podcast. Whether you're looking for a new marketing channel, have a message you want to share with the world or just think it'd be fun to have your own show like us, podcasting is an easy, inexpensive, and fun way to expand your reach online. And Buzzsprout is hands down the easiest and best way to launch, promote, and track your podcast. Your show gets put online and listed in all the major podcast directories like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, literally everything, within minutes of finishing and uploading your recording. We use it here for The Turn On and I can truly attest to the fact that it's pretty fucking dope.

Kenrya: Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners and the team at Buzzsprout is passionate about helping you succeed. So join over 100,000 podcasters like us who are already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Just click the link in our show notes and you'll be able to get your own account set up. And if you sign up for a paid plan, you'll get a $20 Amazon gift card and support our show. Let's create something great together. Sign up for Buzzsprout today.

Kenrya: Hey, y'all.

Erica: Okay, y'all.

Kenrya: So, we're back. And this week for what's turning us on, I don't even know what episode it was. I was talking about how with my disability I have a little bit harder time with doing a lot of stuff. And one of those things that's a little tougher is sex. And it's mostly because I have to keep my heart rate low, because when it goes high things go wonky.

Kenrya: And so I'm finding that the position that I'm in can have a huge effect on how much energy I'm expending and how high my heart rate goes. So when I stand up, my heart rate shoots up and my blood pressure drops down low. Not great. And so it means that you got to be careful when you're having sex.

Erica: We like dropping it low, just not blood pressures low.

Kenrya: Just not blood pressure, yes. And so, I've had this book sitting over here on my bookshelf. I've had this book for literal years. I can't even remember how long ago I bought this book. And it's funny because I was just opening it to look at it before we started talking. And it was cracking because I hardly ever open it, but when folks... Back when we were in our, I don't know, was it late-twenties, early-thirties when everybody was getting married?

Erica: Yeah.

Kenrya: And so a book, I used to... You know how I give books for gifts. And I would give folks two books, one for love and one for lust. So the one for love is this “Love Letters” book, and the one for lust has always been a copy of the “Kama Sutra.” Usually a really nice, beautifully illustrated. Mine is not as beautiful as theirs, but whatever.

Kenrya: But so as I've been thinking about ways that I can help keep my shit and my heart rate low, I have been begrudgingly thinking about new positions. Because we know I have a favorite, but that takes so much energy. And so it has forced me to go to the old faithful Kama Sutra to find positions that are better suited for the body that I am currently in. And so I am recommending a thing that is turning me on.

Kenrya: Oh, they sucking dick.

Erica: Ayy.

Kenrya: Is that you do some spring cleaning on your positions, right? We get stuck in-

Erica: Oh, I was going to say that pussy.

Kenrya: Oh, well, whatever organs you have.

Erica: Spring clean that bussy. I see. Yeah, that bussy.

Kenrya: So we get stuck in doing things in certain ways because it's the way that we know that we can get off and is what has worked for us for however long, whether it's with one partner or with all of our partners. Why not look into some new ways that you can get off? Whether it's because you need to, like me, or just because you want to try something new. You might find that there's some shit that you really, really like that you never thought that you should try just by looking in the Kama Sutra. So that's what's turning me on this week.

Erica: Yay. Well, I like that, because I feel like we've all... I was looking back here because I'm like...

Kenrya: You got a copy somewhere?

Erica: I know I got a copy, and it probably came from you.

Kenrya: Probably.

Erica: Here's the problem. So I've been reading somewhere that there's this group called Room Raters.

Kenrya: Yeah.

Erica: And they raid... They rate people's rooms.

Kenrya: Uh-huh (affirmative). The folks who are doing TV and Zoom webinars and shit.

Erica: And I have a friend who was like, "These motherfuckers took a point off." And I'm like, "Okay." But one of the things that they talk about is they don't like it when people have their books lined up according to color. And I do.

Erica: Hold on, let me see if I can get my camera.

Kenrya: Why not? Why they don't like that?

Erica: I guess they say it means that you don't read them or something.

Kenrya: But that's bullshit, because if you remember the cover then it helps you to be able to find. I know it's a blue book.

Erica: And the only books that I can find are the books up there because I know the color of... I know what the... The menu. I know what the cover looks like, and then I know where to go. The rest of these motherfucking books, I literally got to be like...

Kenrya: Right, that's stupid. That's like my closet is in... So after the last time that the fucking pole fell, when I finally put everything back up...

Erica: Oh, shit.

Kenrya: It's fallen three times.

Erica: I'm sorry, YouTubers.

Kenrya: And it's fell again. I don't even know why it fell this time because I replaced it with a metal pole instead of the cheap ass shit that was up there when I moved in. Anyway. But so my clothes are in color order now because it took me two fucking days to do it and get them up there. But it's just so much easier if I know that there's this particular black dress-

Erica: “I'm going for yellow today.”

Kenrya: Yeah, I can literally just go through all the fucking yellow. It's so much easier. People are wilin’. So, anyway.

Erica: Well, anyway.

Kenrya: Kama Sutra.

Erica: All right, y'all. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Turn On. This is Erica and Kenrya, your two favorite hoes making it clap.

Kenrya: Bye.

[theme music]

Kenrya: This episode was produced by us, Kenrya and Erica, and edited by B'Lystic. The theme music is from Brazy. Hit subscribe right now in your favorite podcast app and at YouTube.com/TheTurnOnPodcast, so you'll never miss an episode.

Erica: Then follow us on Twitter @TheTurnOnPod and Instagram @TheTurnOnPodcast. And you can find links to books, transcripts, guest info, what's turning us on, and other fun stuff at TheTurnOnPodcast.com.

Kenrya: And don't forget to email us at [email protected] with your book recommendations and your pressing sex-and related questions.

Erica: And you can support the show by leaving us a five-star review, buying some merch or becoming a patron of the show. Just head to TheTurnOnPodcast.com to make that happen.

Kenrya: Thanks for listening and we'll see you soon. Holla.

TRANSCRIPTS

Season 5 | Episode 8.5 | The Turn On x Katrina Jackson

Season 5 | Episode 8 | Come Over

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